I'm not going to post in PPR anymore

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I want an isolated Europe because european culture is in every way superior to middle-eastern which hasn't developed since the middle-ages. Middle-eastern culture was very developed in relation to the standards of the 14th century, but today it's nothing but an aggressor towards the modern european cultures which it despises and feels are "immoral" for letting same sex loving people have equal rights. With Fortress Europe I only mean to include western european nations. Any eastern european nation wanting to be part of the federation would have to reach certain social standards first before applying.

Sweden is about 80% ethnic swedish, 17% immigrants and the remaining % being sami, finnish minority, gypsys and jews.

Last edited by Zoonic on 19 May 2009, 3:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.

but are homophobes the majority in Western Europe? I wouldnt know seeing as I am straight and don't live in Europe. My point is that widespread homophobia exists within his dream of an all-white Europe. For example Moscow's mayor recently took big action against a gay pride parade and the mayor thinks all gays are evil or something along those lines. Do homophobes in Western Europe hold such power?

Russia has a long way to go before having attained modern european values and it's more of a eurasian culture anyway. In western Europe Paris has a gay mayor. Sweden have several gay ministers and top politicians. Germany has a few, same with Holland. The UK has an openly gay "lord" or what they call the most powerful in parliament.

Even most integrated and non-extremist middle-eastern immigrants are homophobic and teach their children to be homophobic. Most gay bashings aren't commited by men from the mosques in scraggly beards but rather young, aggressive immigrants who are culturally influenced but not very religious. Still, the muslims incite hatred against gays as well, of course.

It isn't worth the price to "educate" these people and make them function. All attempts to do so have failed anyway.

Imo it depends on the country in the Middle East. Lebanon for example has made huge cultural strides since the middle ages and the same goes for most of the Gulf countries and Tunisia. Although others such as Saudi Arabia, Morocco, Iraq, and Yemen are sadly stuck in a different world from the rest of the World. Although I assume most of Sweden's immigrants are from the more extremist countries which gives people a bad view of the rest of the Middle East unfortunately. BTW do you feel differently about other non-western first world places such as Japan and South Korea?

You forgot to mention Iran, the country God forgot about. You probably don't want to include it because you feel racial kinship between persians and northern indians and think all the "white collar" exile-iranians are doing so well it would be a shame to criticize their horribly backwards country. Most exile-iranians I've met have been extremely racist and anti-gay btw, regardless of religious believes. There are support groups for iranian gays who are threatened by their highly educated families. I view iranian culture as very aggressive and intolerant with racist elements as well. I don't want such a culture on european ground.

Yes, I respect Japan and South Korea. They are anti-immigration countries, well functioning and socially progressing in many areas while technologically being the top of the world. Even though they don't really have the same understanding of homosexuality in Japan as in Europe, there is no hate crimes there and even if two men theoretically would kiss in public they wouldn't be assaulted, just viewed as weird.

ok, btw I have no problem with your idea of a Fortress Europe as long as Europe wouldn't forcibly expell immigrants would already call Europe their home. Because that would simply create absolute chaos and millions in need of asylums. I respect East and South Asia's policies on immigration and cultural preservation and if Europe wants to adopt them then go for it. I just dont think its realistic given Europe's(generally) liberal attitude in comparison to Asia.
Oh and I didnt intentionally forget Iran. I was only thinking of Arab countries so I forgot them. But yes the plight of gays and Baha'i is a shame in their country. In particular the Baha'i have it rough as in Iran(their homeland) they are persecuted the worst. Yet the Baha'i tend to be very peaceful and kind people.
By the way I consider Iranians are related to me the same way you would consider Germans to be related to you. I dont find them to be bad people but they have an oppressive government ever since Mohammed Mossadegh was out of charge...

Last edited by hyder13 on 19 May 2009, 3:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

While I may disagree with your views and proposed changes, I welcome the opportunity to discuss them. There is great difference between talking about one's opinion, and being abusive towards others. Herein, the tone has largely been less insulting and more objective, albeit still containing massive generalizations or stereotypes - in my opinion. What do you value so much about national boundaries and traditions? What makes them superior to a culturally diverse development?


M.

There is a difference between holding a majority and having a widespread existence. I didn't claim they were a majority.

For an example, a recent one, of homophobia within a Western country: there is a gay minister within the Church of Scotland. His mere presence caused anger among other ministers and their congregations, to the extent that there was even talk of a split from the church.

I can anticipate this example being rejected because it involves the church, but I feel this is not a fair objection when it is considered that 14% of Scots are identified as being a part of this church according to the 2001 census, so any amount of the congregation that is large enough to consider a split will be a sizeable portion of the Scottish population.

But I wasn't actually thinking about this sort of homophobia anyway. I was thinking about the sort that might make a homosexual person afraid to "come out," for fear that they will be judged differently than they were before. I'm talking about the wideheld opinion that "homosexuality isn't natural," (I have myself heard this many times, and never have I seen any shame from the people who say it).

This isn't a view you will hear from many politicians in Britain, but it is a view held by many regular citizens.

~

I would appreciate, Zoonic, if you could answer my earlier question:

Last edited by McTell on 19 May 2009, 3:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Wrong country, wrong planet ... maybe even wrong galaxy!

Yes I think the best way would be to ban foreigners. I explained why, they bring obsolete cultural values incompatible with modern european culture. I'm a cultural chauvinist, like the late dutch gay politician Pim Fortuyn who clearly claimed middle-eastern culture was inferior to modern european.

What makes them superior? The possibility of avoiding gay bashing because a foreign culture doesn't approve of gays. The possibility to avoid foreign superstition and disgusting religion. Don't mention "christians" because the only place where christians like that have any position other than a hated, extreme minority is the USA and I don't care for american domestic politics. I care for a better future for Europe, the socially most developed place on Earth which is now being ripped to pieces by violent immigration from cultures which are still trapped in the 14th century ideologically.

So this mainly comes down to your hatred for religion and "superstition". Well this is where the debate stops and reaches a dead end I guess. I cant make you religious and you cant make me hate religion. Oh and extremist Christians are also common in Egypt, Greece, italy, Armenia, Russia, Ukraine, and most of Latinamerica...btw Im not Christian

I doubt it is possible for a human being to perceive which culture is the superior one without a great deal of hindsight.

I also doubt it is reasonable to say with confidence Culture X is superior to Culture Y, when cultures involve many different aspects: among which are food, literature, music and sport. I know my country would be a poorer one if it lacked these foreign influences.

A third problem I see with your view of culture is that you are considering culture to exist in space, but forgetting that it exists in time also. However, I don't see any reason to talk about this problem any further at the moment.

Last edited by McTell on 19 May 2009, 4:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.

it seems muslims are as intolerant of gays as gays are intolerant of middle-easterners. This seems to be a two way street. Without mutual respect the only relation between the two will be hatred.

Muslims started the hatred. Gays just tried being themselves, which the obsolete cultures of the muslims did not approve of. In muslim countries, the situation for gay people is atrocious to say the least. Even in modern countries like Dubai, homophobia dominated society. Just read about how a white, western boy, Alexandre Robert, was raped by arab men and how the authorities treated the case afterwards. They threatened to prosecute the boy, who was straight, for "homosexual behaviour" and claimed he probably wanted it all along. In arab culture usually only the passive part is seen as gay.