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AspieOtaku
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10 Aug 2012, 10:59 am

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lt5csm8SFAc&feature=related[/youtube]guns are aswesome!! I would like to fire an ar 15 the only guns I have fired are a 22 rifle and a 20 gage shotgun. Blasted the plywood board in half with the shotgun and managed to hit the bullseye every time with the 22 rifle i like rifles they are accurate!


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aSKperger
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10 Aug 2012, 2:12 pm

Quote:
Hey, you ever heard of targeting the eyes, throat, and groin?


Sure:
aSKperger wrote:
and then bite of his cock and crush balls...



Quote:
you can't even identify the most obvious holes in the attacker's security?


I do. But the average women we are talking about don't. Don't know what kind of average women you meet, obviously not the same kind I do. Without proper basic selfdefence training, saying a woman "go for eyes and throat" has no real effect. Some of them scratch eyes instinctively during fight, but that is not enough and causes only the more serious consequences I mentioned before. They do not have the necessary aggression and skills to overwhelm an attacker with single action. Once again, I am talking about an average woman without practice here.


Quote:
You mentioned that rapists don't walk around with a "going for rape" sign. Well neither do career criminals walk around with a "going for robbery" sign

Sure. But as I said, it is possible to prepare for it. What's so irritating about it? But there is difference between you and me in methods. You advocate guns=reaction, I prefer prevention.

Quote:
40% of all robberies are strong armed, so do you really expect anyone to feel safe being at the mercy of them? With all your guilt tripping BS about us being "happy" with gun deaths, you seem to be perfectly happy with leaving robbery victims defenseless and betting their safety on being part of the 60% so don't f***ing tell us how we're supposed to feel.


What safety is there standing in front of a strong armed robber with gun under the desk??? It is playing russian roulette, has nothing to do with safety.

Quote:
you seem to be perfectly happy with leaving robbery victims defenseless


I am perfectly unhappy to see your ignorance about any defence mechanism I mention. You seem to consider gun as the only one. Well, your loss.

Quote:
if he leaves your insult unanswered.

I never said you should insult anyone. If you see he is an amateur and you feel you should overwhelm/discourage him, do it. If not, don't and obey everything he says. Simple as that. Don't know what you imagined there.



LKL
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11 Aug 2012, 1:11 am

AngelRho wrote:
AceOfSpades wrote:
Dox47 wrote:
aSKperger wrote:
Quote:
So, your advice to a woman being attacked sexually is "lay back and take it, it will end better for you"?


Well, cruel but true. It is not only my opinion. It is very well argumented and covered up, many if not all police forces in europe would suggest the same.
Best defence is precaution. After an average woman lays on the ground under an average attacker, she should just pray. You can try it. Tell your wife/gf to fight you in this situation. Or vice versa, try to be a hero under someone 150 pounds heavier, 3 times stronger and with testosterone level at least 10x higher. Seriously try it and then advice any women to defend with clean conscience. I would not.

'
Hey Ace, you can put your quote back with a clear conscience, I don't see any ambiguity here.
Yes sir.

AceOfSpades wrote:
Jesus f***ing Christ, that's even worse than the "It doesn't matter who started it, two wrongs don't make a right!" crap I used to get from my teachers. I guess it's more politically correct for a woman to lay helplessly while being raped.
I tried to give him the benefit of the doubt but I should've never put it past him. Hey, you ever heard of targeting the eyes, throat, and groin? What kind of security guy are you if you can't even identify the most obvious holes in the attacker's security?

This may reflect poorly on my parenting skills, but this is EXACTLY the same mentality I have when my two oldest children get into a fight. My USUAL response is to stay out of it. They're siblings. Let THEM sort it out. They'll have an even deeper appreciation of each other when they're adults and will be more adept at sorting things out with others because of all the pressure they put on each other.

Besides, it's just flat-out funny. I just want to lay back in a recliner with a bag of microwave popcorn to see who wins. It's better than truTV, Smoking Gun's "World's Dumbest..." I only get involved if it appears someone is about to lose an eye or get a limb severed. I don't want them to end up like my dad and his sister.

True story: My father and aunt were playing out in my grandfather's tool shed once when my dad cut her finger off with a hatchet. That kind of thing with my own kids would be my worst nightmare. It's frightening just watching my daughter wield a butter knife. No sharp objects for her...

speaking as someone who was both 4 years younger (= stupid by comparison) and smaller and weaker than my brother, I'd advocate intervention. My brother and I fought a lot, and I can count the number of times that I won on one hand; I have a graphite tattoo under my lower lip from being stabbed with a pencil, and another on my hand. I'm in my 30's now, and the relationship is still strained.



LKL
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11 Aug 2012, 1:18 am

Number 4: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12764330
quote:

Quote:
Homicide and suicide risks associated with firearms in the home: a national case-control study.
Wiebe DJ.
Source

Violence Prevention Research Group, University of California-Los Angeles School of Public Health, Los Angeles, CA, USA. [email protected]
Abstract
STUDY OBJECTIVE:

I test the hypothesis that having a gun in the home is a risk factor for adults to be killed (homicide) or to commit suicide.
METHODS:

Two case-control analyses were based on national samples of subjects 18 years of age or older. Homicide and suicide case subjects were drawn from the 1993 National Mortality Followback Survey. Living control subjects were drawn from the 1994 National Health Interview Survey. Ten control subjects matched by sex, race, and age group were sought for each case subject.
RESULTS:

The homicide sample consisted of 1,720 case subjects and 8,084 control subjects. Compared with adults in homes with no guns, the adjusted odds ratio (OR) for homicide was 1.41 (95% confidence interval [CI] 1.20 to 1.65) for adults with a gun at home and was particularly high among women (adjusted OR 2.72; 95% CI 1.89 to 3.90) compared with men (adjusted OR 1.23; 95% CI 1.01 to 1.49) and among nonwhite subjects (adjusted OR 1.74; 95% CI 1.37 to 2.21) compared with white subjects (adjusted OR 1.27; 95% CI 1.03 to 1.56). Further analyses revealed that a gun in the home was a risk factor for homicide by firearm means (adjusted OR 1.72; 95% CI 1.40 to 2.12) but not by nonfirearm means (OR 0.83; 95% CI 0.62 to 1.11). The suicide sample consisted of 1,959 case subjects and 13,535 control subjects. The adjusted OR for suicide was 3.44 (95% CI 3.06 to 3.86) for persons with a gun at home. However, further analysis revealed that having a firearm in the home was a risk factor for suicide by firearm (adjusted OR 16.89; 95% CI 13.26 to 21.52) but was inversely associated with suicide by other means (adjusted OR 0.68; 95% CI 0.55 to 0.84).
CONCLUSION:

Having a gun at home is a risk factor for adults to be shot fatally (gun homicide) or commit suicide with a firearm. Physicians should continue to discuss with patients the implications of keeping guns at home. Additional studies are warranted to address study limitations and to better understand the implications of firearm ownership.

bolding mine.



John_Browning
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11 Aug 2012, 4:36 am

LKL wrote:
Number 4: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12764330
quote:
Quote:
Homicide and suicide risks associated with firearms in the home: a national case-control study.
Wiebe DJ.
Source

Violence Prevention Research Group, University of California-Los Angeles School of Public Health, Los Angeles, CA, USA. [email protected]
Abstract
STUDY OBJECTIVE:

I test the hypothesis that having a gun in the home is a risk factor for adults to be killed (homicide) or to commit suicide.
METHODS:

Two case-control analyses were based on national samples of subjects 18 years of age or older. Homicide and suicide case subjects were drawn from the 1993 National Mortality Followback Survey. Living control subjects were drawn from the 1994 National Health Interview Survey. Ten control subjects matched by sex, race, and age group were sought for each case subject.
RESULTS:

The homicide sample consisted of 1,720 case subjects and 8,084 control subjects. Compared with adults in homes with no guns, the adjusted odds ratio (OR) for homicide was 1.41 (95% confidence interval [CI] 1.20 to 1.65) for adults with a gun at home and was particularly high among women (adjusted OR 2.72; 95% CI 1.89 to 3.90) compared with men (adjusted OR 1.23; 95% CI 1.01 to 1.49) and among nonwhite subjects (adjusted OR 1.74; 95% CI 1.37 to 2.21) compared with white subjects (adjusted OR 1.27; 95% CI 1.03 to 1.56). Further analyses revealed that a gun in the home was a risk factor for homicide by firearm means (adjusted OR 1.72; 95% CI 1.40 to 2.12) but not by nonfirearm means (OR 0.83; 95% CI 0.62 to 1.11). The suicide sample consisted of 1,959 case subjects and 13,535 control subjects. The adjusted OR for suicide was 3.44 (95% CI 3.06 to 3.86) for persons with a gun at home. However, further analysis revealed that having a firearm in the home was a risk factor for suicide by firearm (adjusted OR 16.89; 95% CI 13.26 to 21.52) but was inversely associated with suicide by other means (adjusted OR 0.68; 95% CI 0.55 to 0.84).
CONCLUSION:

Having a gun at home is a risk factor for adults to be shot fatally (gun homicide) or commit suicide with a firearm. Physicians should continue to discuss with patients the implications of keeping guns at home. Additional studies are warranted to address study limitations and to better understand the implications of firearm ownership.

bolding mine.


Having a gun in the home increases suicides by firearm compared to not having a gun at home. Having a pool or spa at home increases drownings compared to people with a plain dirt yard. People that regularly keep a box of twinkies in the house are more likely to need bariatric surgery than those who don't eat twinkies. People that fly on small planes or commuter planes are more likely to die in a plane crash than people that sit around watching Oprah. People with a playboy magazine in the house are found to be more prone to repetitive injuries than people without a playboy magazine in the house.

This once again comes back around to bad relationships. If those women ditched the drunks and a**holes and found better mates, they would have happier relationships and their only worry about getting shot by their mate is in the eye in the bedroom on occasion! :P


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AspieOtaku
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11 Aug 2012, 2:50 pm

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIxetRsd_2c[/youtube]Good,bad Im the one with a gun!! 8)


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Dox47
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12 Aug 2012, 4:48 am

LKL wrote:
Number 4: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12764330
quote:
Quote:
Homicide and suicide risks associated with firearms in the home: a national case-control study.
Wiebe DJ.
Source

Violence Prevention Research Group, University of California-Los Angeles School of Public Health, Los Angeles, CA, USA. [email protected]
Abstract
STUDY OBJECTIVE:

I test the hypothesis that having a gun in the home is a risk factor for adults to be killed (homicide) or to commit suicide.
METHODS:

Two case-control analyses were based on national samples of subjects 18 years of age or older. Homicide and suicide case subjects were drawn from the 1993 National Mortality Followback Survey. Living control subjects were drawn from the 1994 National Health Interview Survey. Ten control subjects matched by sex, race, and age group were sought for each case subject.
RESULTS:

The homicide sample consisted of 1,720 case subjects and 8,084 control subjects. Compared with adults in homes with no guns, the adjusted odds ratio (OR) for homicide was 1.41 (95% confidence interval [CI] 1.20 to 1.65) for adults with a gun at home and was particularly high among women (adjusted OR 2.72; 95% CI 1.89 to 3.90) compared with men (adjusted OR 1.23; 95% CI 1.01 to 1.49) and among nonwhite subjects (adjusted OR 1.74; 95% CI 1.37 to 2.21) compared with white subjects (adjusted OR 1.27; 95% CI 1.03 to 1.56). Further analyses revealed that a gun in the home was a risk factor for homicide by firearm means (adjusted OR 1.72; 95% CI 1.40 to 2.12) but not by nonfirearm means (OR 0.83; 95% CI 0.62 to 1.11). The suicide sample consisted of 1,959 case subjects and 13,535 control subjects. The adjusted OR for suicide was 3.44 (95% CI 3.06 to 3.86) for persons with a gun at home. However, further analysis revealed that having a firearm in the home was a risk factor for suicide by firearm (adjusted OR 16.89; 95% CI 13.26 to 21.52) but was inversely associated with suicide by other means (adjusted OR 0.68; 95% CI 0.55 to 0.84).
CONCLUSION:

Having a gun at home is a risk factor for adults to be shot fatally (gun homicide) or commit suicide with a firearm. Physicians should continue to discuss with patients the implications of keeping guns at home. Additional studies are warranted to address study limitations and to better understand the implications of firearm ownership.

bolding mine.


Read the methodology closely.
They didn't research how many gun owners were victims of violent crimes, they started with the victims and worked their way backwards into gun ownership, skewing their results. I've been debunking some version of this "study" for years, quite a few different groups have put forward versions over the years, always with slightly different numbers but always with the same flawed survey method, because it produces the results they want. It's not really research, it's propaganda.


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LKL
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15 Aug 2012, 1:37 am

John_Browning wrote:
LKL wrote:
Number 4: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12764330
quote:
Quote:
Homicide and suicide risks associated with firearms in the home: a national case-control study.
Wiebe DJ.
Source

Violence Prevention Research Group, University of California-Los Angeles School of Public Health, Los Angeles, CA, USA. [email protected]
Abstract
STUDY OBJECTIVE:

I test the hypothesis that having a gun in the home is a risk factor for adults to be killed (homicide) or to commit suicide.
METHODS:

Two case-control analyses were based on national samples of subjects 18 years of age or older. Homicide and suicide case subjects were drawn from the 1993 National Mortality Followback Survey. Living control subjects were drawn from the 1994 National Health Interview Survey. Ten control subjects matched by sex, race, and age group were sought for each case subject.
RESULTS:

The homicide sample consisted of 1,720 case subjects and 8,084 control subjects. Compared with adults in homes with no guns, the adjusted odds ratio (OR) for homicide was 1.41 (95% confidence interval [CI] 1.20 to 1.65) for adults with a gun at home and was particularly high among women (adjusted OR 2.72; 95% CI 1.89 to 3.90) compared with men (adjusted OR 1.23; 95% CI 1.01 to 1.49) and among nonwhite subjects (adjusted OR 1.74; 95% CI 1.37 to 2.21) compared with white subjects (adjusted OR 1.27; 95% CI 1.03 to 1.56). Further analyses revealed that a gun in the home was a risk factor for homicide by firearm means (adjusted OR 1.72; 95% CI 1.40 to 2.12) but not by nonfirearm means (OR 0.83; 95% CI 0.62 to 1.11). The suicide sample consisted of 1,959 case subjects and 13,535 control subjects. The adjusted OR for suicide was 3.44 (95% CI 3.06 to 3.86) for persons with a gun at home. However, further analysis revealed that having a firearm in the home was a risk factor for suicide by firearm (adjusted OR 16.89; 95% CI 13.26 to 21.52) but was inversely associated with suicide by other means (adjusted OR 0.68; 95% CI 0.55 to 0.84).
CONCLUSION:

Having a gun at home is a risk factor for adults to be shot fatally (gun homicide) or commit suicide with a firearm. Physicians should continue to discuss with patients the implications of keeping guns at home. Additional studies are warranted to address study limitations and to better understand the implications of firearm ownership.

bolding mine.


Having a gun in the home increases suicides by firearm compared to not having a gun at home. Having a pool or spa at home increases drownings compared to people with a plain dirt yard. People that regularly keep a box of twinkies in the house are more likely to need bariatric surgery than those who don't eat twinkies. People that fly on small planes or commuter planes are more likely to die in a plane crash than people that sit around watching Oprah. People with a playboy magazine in the house are found to be more prone to repetitive injuries than people without a playboy magazine in the house.

This once again comes back around to bad relationships. If those women ditched the drunks and a**holes and found better mates, they would have happier relationships and their only worry about getting shot by their mate is in the eye in the bedroom on occasion! :P

Pools and spas, unlike guns, have a purpose other than killing things.

Wrt. women ditching losers: they're more likely to be shot after they leave him than before, and they know it. Often, he threatens to kill not only the woman, but her family and/or the children as well; this happens often enough in the news that women know better than to pretend to themselves that the threats are empty.
www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/199732.pdf
check out pages 5 and 6.

besides which: It doesn't really matter why she stayed. It matters if he shoots her; she might be 'guilty' of foolishness, but he's the one guilty of murder.



LKL
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15 Aug 2012, 1:43 am

Dox47 wrote:
Read the methodology closely.
They didn't research how many gun owners were victims of violent crimes, they started with the victims and worked their way backwards into gun ownership, skewing their results. I've been debunking some version of this "study" for years, quite a few different groups have put forward versions over the years, always with slightly different numbers but always with the same flawed survey method, because it produces the results they want. It's not really research, it's propaganda.

Your analysis is inaccurate.

Quote:
Two case-control analyses were based on national samples of subjects 18 years of age or older. Homicide and suicide case subjects were drawn from the 1993 National Mortality Followback Survey. Living control subjects were drawn from the 1994 National Health Interview Survey. Ten control subjects matched by sex, race, and age group were sought for each case subject.

They started out with homicide and suicide victims, then randomly selected individuals from the population to compare them to. In other words, 1,720 times, they looked at 11 people, one of which was dead, and looked at what differentiated the dead person from the living people other than sex, race, and age. Your case would be valid if they only started with homicide and suicide by firearm, but that is not the case for this study.



AceOfSpades
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15 Aug 2012, 8:32 pm

LKL wrote:
Number 4: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12764330
quote:
Quote:
Homicide and suicide risks associated with firearms in the home: a national case-control study.
Wiebe DJ.
Source

Violence Prevention Research Group, University of California-Los Angeles School of Public Health, Los Angeles, CA, USA. [email protected]
Abstract
STUDY OBJECTIVE:

I test the hypothesis that having a gun in the home is a risk factor for adults to be killed (homicide) or to commit suicide.
METHODS:

Two case-control analyses were based on national samples of subjects 18 years of age or older. Homicide and suicide case subjects were drawn from the 1993 National Mortality Followback Survey. Living control subjects were drawn from the 1994 National Health Interview Survey. Ten control subjects matched by sex, race, and age group were sought for each case subject.
RESULTS:

The homicide sample consisted of 1,720 case subjects and 8,084 control subjects. Compared with adults in homes with no guns, the adjusted odds ratio (OR) for homicide was 1.41 (95% confidence interval [CI] 1.20 to 1.65) for adults with a gun at home and was particularly high among women (adjusted OR 2.72; 95% CI 1.89 to 3.90) compared with men (adjusted OR 1.23; 95% CI 1.01 to 1.49) and among nonwhite subjects (adjusted OR 1.74; 95% CI 1.37 to 2.21) compared with white subjects (adjusted OR 1.27; 95% CI 1.03 to 1.56). Further analyses revealed that a gun in the home was a risk factor for homicide by firearm means (adjusted OR 1.72; 95% CI 1.40 to 2.12) but not by nonfirearm means (OR 0.83; 95% CI 0.62 to 1.11). The suicide sample consisted of 1,959 case subjects and 13,535 control subjects. The adjusted OR for suicide was 3.44 (95% CI 3.06 to 3.86) for persons with a gun at home. However, further analysis revealed that having a firearm in the home was a risk factor for suicide by firearm (adjusted OR 16.89; 95% CI 13.26 to 21.52) but was inversely associated with suicide by other means (adjusted OR 0.68; 95% CI 0.55 to 0.84).
CONCLUSION:

Having a gun at home is a risk factor for adults to be shot fatally (gun homicide) or commit suicide with a firearm. Physicians should continue to discuss with patients the implications of keeping guns at home. Additional studies are warranted to address study limitations and to better understand the implications of firearm ownership.

bolding mine.
It's the same old flaw of measuring a gun's self defense value strictly by body count. Once again in 92% of cases where a legally licenced gun owner draws a gun either no shot is fired or warning shots are. There are approximately 2.1-25 million cases of defensive gun use every year in the states. 36% of those cases occurred near the victim's residence, 37% occurred inside of it, and the last 27% occurred away from home. So the focus on firearms in the home is misleading since states where CCW is illegal would rule all defensive gun uses outside of the home out.

Then again, what more could I expect from a Violence Prevention Research Group? The public health issue paradigm of guns is inherently afflicted with tunnel vision.

To be fair, that 2.1-2.5 million figure is from '93 where violent crime was much higher. But that still vastly outnumbers the homicide rates of the time and it really isn't that much of a stretch for defensive gun use to be somewhere near that range these days.

These are all Kleck's figures btw. Not sure about the 92% figure, but I've repeated it again and again on this forum so I could find the link if I wanna dig it up. I remember seeing it along with the 2.5 million figure though so I'm pretty sure it is from him.



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17 Aug 2012, 11:12 pm

Declension wrote:
outofplace wrote:
Not only that but it stands as a final check and balance against the possibility of tyrannical government.


People who make this argument are adorable. It's like they are permanently stuck in the eighteenth century.

When the aircraft carriers start launching unmanned drones, never fear! We'll fight them off with our handguns.


Or drive said tyrannical government into printing trillions of dollars it does not have and divert resources away from societal progress. Asymmetric warfare is a Motherf***er.



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17 Aug 2012, 11:15 pm

aSKperger wrote:
Quote:
Hey, you ever heard of targeting the eyes, throat, and groin?


Sure:
aSKperger wrote:
and then bite of his cock and crush balls...



Quote:
you can't even identify the most obvious holes in the attacker's security?


I do. But the average women we are talking about don't. Don't know what kind of average women you meet, obviously not the same kind I do. Without proper basic selfdefence training, saying a woman "go for eyes and throat" has no real effect. Some of them scratch eyes instinctively during fight, but that is not enough and causes only the more serious consequences I mentioned before. They do not have the necessary aggression and skills to overwhelm an attacker with single action. Once again, I am talking about an average woman without practice here.


Quote:
You mentioned that rapists don't walk around with a "going for rape" sign. Well neither do career criminals walk around with a "going for robbery" sign

Sure. But as I said, it is possible to prepare for it. What's so irritating about it? But there is difference between you and me in methods. You advocate guns=reaction, I prefer prevention.

Quote:
40% of all robberies are strong armed, so do you really expect anyone to feel safe being at the mercy of them? With all your guilt tripping BS about us being "happy" with gun deaths, you seem to be perfectly happy with leaving robbery victims defenseless and betting their safety on being part of the 60% so don't f***ing tell us how we're supposed to feel.


What safety is there standing in front of a strong armed robber with gun under the desk??? It is playing russian roulette, has nothing to do with safety.

Quote:
you seem to be perfectly happy with leaving robbery victims defenseless


I am perfectly unhappy to see your ignorance about any defence mechanism I mention. You seem to consider gun as the only one. Well, your loss.

Quote:
if he leaves your insult unanswered.

I never said you should insult anyone. If you see he is an amateur and you feel you should overwhelm/discourage him, do it. If not, don't and obey everything he says. Simple as that. Don't know what you imagined there.


And you're the only one professional enough,,,



[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=9ABCiPJRCyA[/youtube]