Is it WRONG to own guns, rifles, swords, knives, etc.?

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Is it wrong to bear arms?
Yes 19%  19%  [ 15 ]
No 81%  81%  [ 66 ]
Total votes : 81

calandale
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15 Sep 2007, 11:58 pm

Quatermass wrote:


In other words, the second amendment, as it stands, is bupkiss, as it doesn't seem to make exceptions. How would you propose regulation, then? How could you make sure that every citizen who has a gun is not going to use that gun on himself or others on a bad day? This is excluding criminals at the moment.


This is the fault of the Supreme Court, and the NRA.
The obvious interpretation (to me) of the 2nd ammendment
seems that there has to be some sort of local organization
behind the guarantee. But, groups living under their own
jurisdiction should be allowed to stockpile whatever they need
to assure their safety from both tyranny and others.



calandale
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16 Sep 2007, 12:01 am

Trigger11 wrote:

The intent of that statement was to ensure the security of the fledgling United States, which had no military at the time. The military, or militia, was the people. It has been misinterpreted by the NRA and gun-loving morons for years.


This was a PART of the issue. But, there was clearly also
worries of safety from the excesses of the state and
federal governments. Which were somewhat brushed
aside, after the Whiskey Rebellion (wrongfully - but the
monied interests prevailed, as always).



calandale
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16 Sep 2007, 12:03 am

snake321 wrote:
I mean I know hand guns aren't that effective against a military


Note that the 2nd amendment makes no restriction to mere
handguns. Local militias had artillery, the heaviest weaponry
of the time. I'd like to see cities with their own strategic weaponry.



The_Chosen_One
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16 Sep 2007, 12:09 am

And my argument is that the US government is not some lunatic junta out to subjugate the masses into slavery and oppression. America is a free society, and their government was and always will be democratically elected. And besides, a handful of rebels and insurgents who are unhappy will always be dealt with, no matter how well armed they are. Paul Revere isn't here yelling 'The British are coming', and Lincoln's Gettysburg address is history. We are now in modern day society, whether it be the US, Australia, England or China; and the threat of the oppression snake is talking about is non-existent.


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16 Sep 2007, 12:15 am

The_Chosen_One wrote:
Is all of America insane or just the lunatics who have been posting this drivel here? What gives you the goddamn right to say that you a***holes are the only ones who have any right to use this forum? EH?
f***ing bombastic ignorant swine the lot of you. I come on here to voice my opinions, and all I get is a lot of kindergarten BS from a bunch of immature brainless prats who can't get their heads out of the TV guide or their issue of Gun Club Weekly or whatever. Well, the hell with you... If you want to carry on like a bunch of catatonic morons, then go ahead. You can have you pissy little argument all to yourself, for all the f***ing good it will do you. I've tried to be reasonable, but you dickheads obviously can't do the same. I'm out of here. :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:


A paragon of logical arguments you are. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

How DOES this person get away with posting this without getting banned?? Others have been banned for far less. :evil:


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calandale
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16 Sep 2007, 12:16 am

The US government regularly oppresses it's
citizens. Moreover, at least SOME of the founding
fathers thought that overthrowing the government
now and again was a necessity. Indeed, the reign of
Lincoln is one of the most clear examples of just how
badly the government treats it's people. Unfortunately,
that war was lost by the side of freedom, and it's too late
now to return to any semblance of the truly radical experiment
which this country once was.



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16 Sep 2007, 12:20 am

The_Chosen_One wrote:
Who is being childish here? Sheesh! I have told you time and time again, (and I'm sick of wasting my breath) that i) your government aren't out to get you regardless of your belief that they are. If they were, your stay in that nut-house would have been a lot longer than it was; ii) There is absolutely NO NEED in 2007 for ANYONE apart from the police to be carrying a gun, apart from criminals....


Then who protects us from the police, when they realize they won't suffer consequences for their actions?

The police out here are aware of this. You would be amazed at how respectfull rural county sheriffs are of the local population. A bullet could, after all, come from almost anywhere. It's best not to have the locals hate you.


Ooohh, and Who is supposed to protect us from the criminals again?


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jfrmeister
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16 Sep 2007, 12:20 am

The_Chosen_One wrote:
Who is being childish here? Sheesh! I have told you time and time again, (and I'm sick of wasting my breath) that i) your government aren't out to get you regardless of your belief that they are. If they were, your stay in that nut-house would have been a lot longer than it was; ii) There is absolutely NO NEED in 2007 for ANYONE apart from the police to be carrying a gun, apart from criminals....


Then who protects us from the police, when they realize they won't suffer consequences for their actions?

The police out here are aware of this. You would be amazed at how respectfull rural county sheriffs are of the local population. A bullet could, after all, come from almost anywhere. It's best not to have the locals hate you.


Ooohh, and Who is supposed to protect us from the criminals again?


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jfrmeister
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16 Sep 2007, 12:23 am

The_Chosen_One wrote:
Who is being childish here? Sheesh! I have told you time and time again, (and I'm sick of wasting my breath) that i) your government aren't out to get you regardless of your belief that they are. If they were, your stay in that nut-house would have been a lot longer than it was; ii) There is absolutely NO NEED in 2007 for ANYONE apart from the police to be carrying a gun, apart from criminals....


Then who protects us from the police, when they realize they won't suffer consequences for their actions?

The police out here are aware of this. You would be amazed at how respectfull rural county sheriffs are of the local population. A bullet could, after all, come from almost anywhere. It's best not to have the locals hate you.


Ooohh, and Who is supposed to protect us from the criminals again?


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MysteryFan3
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16 Sep 2007, 12:47 am

There have been good points raised here, amidst the bickering and name-calling and US bashing. I favor the second amendment because banning guns is pre-optimizing the larger problem of gun crime. For a while after citizens in the UK turned in their guns, home invasions spiked. Some people were killed.

Saying we have police in the US to handle criminals is partly true. I think they do the best they can, overall. However, on a few occasions I have had police ignore my call for help, show up an hour later or drive past without stopping. Too often people in poor areas are left to fend for themselves unless the news media steps in for a sweeps month to focus on the problem. In spite of that, it is still better to call the police than not, but the police are not enough to justify a gun ban.

On the other hand, the US military has the power to overpower the general population with military force at anytime. The only reason we are still free is that we teach our children loyalty to the country and liberty, not the government. Keeping guns to overthrow a corrupt government is not practical. We are outgunned and out-organized. Try to get 20 million people anywhere to do one thing, and you'll go crazy in no time.

And no, not everybody with a gun in the US goes around shooting everyone else. That statement warrants an apology. I've never owned a gun, but I want the option if I need it.

It is impossible for any nation to keep guns away from the people who want them, even if some of those people are mentally deranged. There are people in China caught with illegal guns.

In the US, if a person breaks into your home, you have the legal right to assume the person is armed and intends to use deadly force. However, the best tactic is to bar the bedroom door and call the police. If you have a gun, yell through the door "Stay out! I have a gun and I've called the police. I will shoot to kill" and aim the gun at the door with the hammer cocked. Don't shoot unless someone tries to force the door. Put the gun away when the police arrive and do exactly what they say. That's how a gun can be used for self-defense without threatening society in general.

As for walking around at night, I walk to Wal-Mart at 2 am with no problems (southern Indiana). I've also walked home through Maplewood and Roseville (north of St. Paul, Minnesota) at 3 am with no issues except tired feet.

I'd like a world where guns aren't needed, but they are needed in some situations for now. Most gun owners are people who understand and respect their responsibilities. If I see one who isn't, I can spell 911 and get the police.


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calandale
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16 Sep 2007, 1:08 am

jfrmeister wrote:

Then who protects us from the police, when they realize they won't suffer consequences for their actions?


Media?

Quote:
The police out here are aware of this. You would be amazed at how respectfull rural county sheriffs are of the local population. A bullet could, after all, come from almost anywhere. It's best not to have the locals hate you.


More because they are chronically underfunded,
and more connected to the community than in
cities. Trust me, most rural folk have a few long
arms, but a lot less likely to have AP rounds and
fully automatic conversions than in cities.

Quote:
Ooohh, and Who is supposed to protect us from the criminals again?


The ones in blue, or the petty type?



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16 Sep 2007, 1:28 am

Unfortunately, the stereotype has been created that a gun owner will more than like try to be a hero than a responsible person, because we see this all the time in the media. It can't be ignored, so we can only go by what we are shown day in and day out. Plus the fact that too many of these weapons are too readily available to anyone who can get a permit and who has the cash. How many cases also are there where people have their guns stolen from their homes, or their children take them to school and they are stolen from their bags? Far too many I would imagine. The only safe weapon is no weapon at all, because as has been said, they are only designed for one purpose, and that is to kill. Worrying about corrupt police or corrupt governments is just another excuse to justify a 'need' which really isn't relevant in today's society. Maybe I am lucky living in Australia where we don't have the corruption that you guys do. That makes it all the better for me, but it still means that you guys have a long way to go.


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16 Sep 2007, 1:40 am

Trigger11 wrote:
As a conscientious objector to war, I would never serve in any military. I do not believe in murder for any reason other than a direct assault on my children in which force is the only means to protect them, and only as a last resort for self-defense. Proposing mandatory military service is ludicrous and would not respect the rights and beliefs of all of the citizens of said country.


It would protect the freedom of the nation from government going bad and trying to take us over. That was half the basis of the 2nd amendment.



calandale
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16 Sep 2007, 1:42 am

More than half, I'd say.



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16 Sep 2007, 1:46 am

Stereotypes are poor reflections of the groups they misrepresent. Most people do not carry firearms looking for people to kill. Most people do not jump into every gunfight they see. Frankly, I find it disappointing that the US is repeatedly portrayed as a lawless "Wild West" shoot-'em-up and that we are portrayed as irresponsible killers based on rumors, innuendo and non-news TV shows.

I demand an apology.


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16 Sep 2007, 1:52 am

The_Chosen_One wrote:
Unfortunately, the stereotype has been created that a gun owner will more than like try to be a hero than a responsible person, because we see this all the time in the media. It can't be ignored, so we can only go by what we are shown day in and day out. Plus the fact that too many of these weapons are too readily available to anyone who can get a permit and who has the cash. How many cases also are there where people have their guns stolen from their homes, or their children take them to school and they are stolen from their bags? Far too many I would imagine. The only safe weapon is no weapon at all, because as has been said, they are only designed for one purpose, and that is to kill. Worrying about corrupt police or corrupt governments is just another excuse to justify a 'need' which really isn't relevant in today's society. Maybe I am lucky living in Australia where we don't have the corruption that you guys do. That makes it all the better for me, but it still means that you guys have a long way to go.


Id refer you to my earlier comments about misleading vividness Or don't you know how to click on links? Do you know what falicies of logic are? don't you realize you keep commiting the same one?


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