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The worst thing about religion

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benjimanbreeg
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19 Aug 2008, 6:37 pm

wait. What about all the other planets? who made them? Obviously the authors of the bible didn't know those other planets existed when they wrote it did they. Just saying, cause why A.... said about what was before the big bang. How did these other planets occur? How did everything occur? Its too confusing.



Awesomelyglorious
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19 Aug 2008, 6:37 pm

corroonb wrote:
Why could the Big Bang not be a one of a sequence of infinitely regressing singularities?

Because then you still have an infinite period of time having to occur before the present, and then how do you reach the present?

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How can anything exist outside of time and still retain "existence"?

Easily, it exists unchangingly. Where do you have time if there are no temporal relations?
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Isn't temporality a pre-requisite for existence?

No. Existence does not mean existence within time.



Awesomelyglorious
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19 Aug 2008, 6:38 pm

benjimanbreeg wrote:
wait. What about all the other planets? who made them? Obviously the authors of the bible didn't know those other planets existed when they wrote it did they. Just saying, cause why A.... said about what was before the big bang. How did these other planets occur? How did everything occur? Its too confusing.

God did it. I mean... how is the existence of other planets confusing??? I don't even see the argument. I mean, the authors of the bible have no reason to think other planets are important and God had no reason to tell them.



corroonb
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19 Aug 2008, 6:38 pm

Orwell wrote:
skafather84 wrote:
that's what happens when you put someone in a box at a young age and ingrain in them that it's beyond question. most people don't even dare to venture outside the box (afterall, you're doomed to eternal suck in almost every religion if you do). so i fail to see how a call to popularity and authority is relevant in this discussion. when it's established, essentially at birth, that a god is assumed and is present, it's hard to break that mindset and approach the first steps of testing: observing.

If religion occurs only within the bounds of social conditioning from a society which believes in a deity to children who are made to believe in a deity, from whence did the society first obtain its belief in a deity? It is false to claim people only believe in God because they were raised to believe in God, because if that were true there is no explanation of how religious beliefs originated.


Why did many people once believe in pagan deities and not a single deity?

Belief exists because humans need to worship a god-like figure because we evolved to worship the alpha male of the group. God is a replacement for the alpha male. In Nazi Germany, Hitler was worshiped by some. Stalin was also worshiped in communist Russia.



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19 Aug 2008, 6:39 pm

corroonb wrote:
Why could the Big Bang not be a one of a sequence of infinitely regressing singularities?

The argument is not about the Big Bang, which is simply an arbitrary event that occurred that you are attempting to focus on. The issue is whether an infinitely regressing series of causes is logically possible.

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I am not a physicist so I do not know whether such a theory is plausible. I am by profession an IT specialist and classicist.

I'm a pre-med student with an interest in reading random things. Theoretical physics confuses the hell out of me. I can barely deal with simpler physics such as electro-magnetism.

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How can anything exist outside of time and still retain "existence"?

You said that time started at the Big Bang, and that the Big Bang was cause by something else. How then could that cause have existed if it was before time? And is that last statement even coherent? How can something exist "before time" since the word "before" implies a chronology which can not exist in the absence of time?

My head begins to hurt. Let us say that the universe is far too complicated for either of us to understand. You have your beliefs and I have mine, neither of us has an extremely compelling reason for our set of beliefs being necessarily the right ones, and neither of us intends to force others to believe as we do. Peace?


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benjimanbreeg
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19 Aug 2008, 6:41 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
benjimanbreeg wrote:
wait. What about all the other planets? who made them? Obviously the authors of the bible didn't know those other planets existed when they wrote it did they. Just saying, cause why A.... said about what was before the big bang. How did these other planets occur? How did everything occur? Its too confusing.

God did it. I mean... how is the existence of other planets confusing??? I don't even see the argument. I mean, the authors of the bible have no reason to think other planets are important and God had no reason to tell them.


rofl! Wait you are being sarcastic?



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19 Aug 2008, 6:42 pm

benjimanbreeg wrote:
Awesomelyglorious wrote:
benjimanbreeg wrote:
wait. What about all the other planets? who made them? Obviously the authors of the bible didn't know those other planets existed when they wrote it did they. Just saying, cause why A.... said about what was before the big bang. How did these other planets occur? How did everything occur? Its too confusing.

God did it. I mean... how is the existence of other planets confusing??? I don't even see the argument. I mean, the authors of the bible have no reason to think other planets are important and God had no reason to tell them.


rofl! Wait you are being sarcastic?

I can never quite tell with AG.


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benjimanbreeg
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19 Aug 2008, 6:43 pm

Orwell wrote:
benjimanbreeg wrote:
Awesomelyglorious wrote:
benjimanbreeg wrote:
wait. What about all the other planets? who made them? Obviously the authors of the bible didn't know those other planets existed when they wrote it did they. Just saying, cause why A.... said about what was before the big bang. How did these other planets occur? How did everything occur? Its too confusing.

God did it. I mean... how is the existence of other planets confusing??? I don't even see the argument. I mean, the authors of the bible have no reason to think other planets are important and God had no reason to tell them.


rofl! Wait you are being sarcastic?

I can never quite tell with AG.


if he's serious, he's in need of help.



Awesomelyglorious
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19 Aug 2008, 6:43 pm

corroonb wrote:
Why did many people once believe in pagan deities and not a single deity?
False gods perhaps, the Bible already addresses that, doesn't it? :P
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Belief exists because humans need to worship a god-like figure because we evolved to worship the alpha male of the group. God is a replacement for the alpha male. In Nazi Germany, Hitler was worshiped by some. Stalin was also worshiped in communist Russia.

So, pre-humans had religious beliefs? I don't see signs of that. Heck, the neanderthals are sometimes argued to have burial, but even then it is debatable whether this was religious or pragmatic. So, why not, instead of religion, do we not worship each other now? In fact, where do we even get the anti-religious drive, if this worshiping mechanism is so deep within us? Not only that, but if it is normal for human beings to worship, then why is it insane? Are you suggesting, that the natural state of man is equivalent to a psychologically unhealthy state of man? That seems absurd.



corroonb
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19 Aug 2008, 6:43 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
corroonb wrote:
I have to laugh at those who inject emotion into rational discourse. It is very sad.

Really? Then you have to laugh at yourself for you injected connotation-laden terms with poor denotative reason into this argument already for asserting that bad epistemology from your perspective, was the same as insanity.

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Why if I am so disabled or stupid would it anger you?

Stupid people irritate the crap out of me.
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I'm asking what you think intuition is. Did you write an article on wikipedia?

You didn't say that. You asked what intuition is. Frankly, I, once again, duck out of this, because I really do not want to explain to you what an intuition is. I mean, we can say that intuitions are patterns formed in human minds without high regard for social influences, or that which has been already written on the mind or something like that, but the concept is so simple, that asking me to define it for you is absurd.


I conclude that you do not understand what intuition is if you cannot explain it to me. Do you see the irony of using terms without defining them and criticising me for doing the same thing. You are hypocrite.

I also conclude that you are emotionally disturbed if stupidity irritates you. Why does stupidity irritate you?

I also conclude that your main purpose in debate is not learning but self-aggrandizement. Only this would explain your irritation and emotional investment. This is sad.

I am annoyed at no one.



skafather84
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19 Aug 2008, 6:44 pm

Orwell wrote:
skafather84 wrote:
that's what happens when you put someone in a box at a young age and ingrain in them that it's beyond question. most people don't even dare to venture outside the box (afterall, you're doomed to eternal suck in almost every religion if you do). so i fail to see how a call to popularity and authority is relevant in this discussion. when it's established, essentially at birth, that a god is assumed and is present, it's hard to break that mindset and approach the first steps of testing: observing.

If religion occurs only within the bounds of social conditioning from a society which believes in a deity to children who are made to believe in a deity, from whence did the society first obtain its belief in a deity? It is false to claim people only believe in God because they were raised to believe in God, because if that were true there is no explanation of how religious beliefs originated.


superstitious cavemen worshiping the sun and stars and then making up more and more gods of everything as they went along.

they either believe in god due to social conditioning or due to the god of the gaps effect.



Awesomelyglorious
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19 Aug 2008, 6:44 pm

Quote:
Orwell wrote:
rofl! Wait you are being sarcastic?

I can never quite tell with AG.

And that is how I prefer it.



claire-333
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19 Aug 2008, 6:45 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
benjimanbreeg wrote:
wait. What about all the other planets? who made them? Obviously the authors of the bible didn't know those other planets existed when they wrote it did they. Just saying, cause why A.... said about what was before the big bang. How did these other planets occur? How did everything occur? Its too confusing.

God did it. I mean... how is the existence of other planets confusing??? I don't even see the argument. I mean, the authors of the bible have no reason to think other planets are important and God had no reason to tell them.


Awesomelyglorious...you really crack me up. I sometimes have trouble determining when you are and are not serious.



benjimanbreeg
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19 Aug 2008, 6:46 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
Quote:
Orwell wrote:
rofl! Wait you are being sarcastic?

I can never quite tell with AG.

And that is how I prefer it.


narcasist? wrong spelling probably, but you know the word I mean.



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19 Aug 2008, 6:48 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
So, pre-humans had religious beliefs? I don't see signs of that. Heck, the neanderthals are sometimes argued to have burial, but even then it is debatable whether this was religious or pragmatic.

It is also debated whether neanderthals were pre-humans- some researchers consider them to be a sub-species of modern humans and refer to them as homo sapiens neanderthalensis and to modern humans as homo sapiens sapiens, meaning we and the neanderthals would technically fall in the same species. It's even been argued that there wsa interbreeding between neanderthals and humans, and this is where the genes for red hair came from.

Quote:
Are you suggesting, that the natural state of man is equivalent to a psychologically unhealthy state of man? That seems absurd.

I already established earlier in this thread that all humans are insane, so this seems a reasonable claim to make.


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corroonb
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19 Aug 2008, 6:50 pm

Orwell wrote:
corroonb wrote:
Why could the Big Bang not be a one of a sequence of infinitely regressing singularities?

The argument is not about the Big Bang, which is simply an arbitrary event that occurred that you are attempting to focus on. The issue is whether an infinitely regressing series of causes is logically possible.

Quote:
I am not a physicist so I do not know whether such a theory is plausible. I am by profession an IT specialist and classicist.

I'm a pre-med student with an interest in reading random things. Theoretical physics confuses the hell out of me. I can barely deal with simpler physics such as electro-magnetism.

Quote:
How can anything exist outside of time and still retain "existence"?

You said that time started at the Big Bang, and that the Big Bang was cause by something else. How then could that cause have existed if it was before time? And is that last statement even coherent? How can something exist "before time" since the word "before" implies a chronology which can not exist in the absence of time?

My head begins to hurt. Let us say that the universe is far too complicated for either of us to understand. You have your beliefs and I have mine, neither of us has an extremely compelling reason for our set of beliefs being necessarily the right ones, and neither of us intends to force others to believe as we do. Peace?


If time is linear, then you are correct about the big bang. However if time is non-linear in some sense, then there may have been other "times" before the Big Bang. These other times could have begun and ended with a Big Bang. The universe is expanding but will it always do so? If it contracts in on itself, will this create a new Big Bang and start the cycle again?

I am just speculating, I have no knowledge of cosmological physics and little to no knowledge of anything else.