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Brictoria
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26 Feb 2021, 9:34 pm

ironpony wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
Brictoria wrote:
Bradleigh wrote:
Some people just made stuff up, and you are repeating it.


Such as the claim that Ms Carano's post was solely about "conservative"\"right wing" people? Yes, lots of people are repeating that assertion that someone made up...


Curious then that it's "conservative right wing people" rushing to defend her then. Why do think that is Brictoria? Are they doing out of the goodness of their heart?


I don't understand this right vs left thing when it comes to certain things. Why is it that a lot of people in the US take to two sides like this? Why does the right believe in more freedom of speech when it comes to career and jobs, but the left is doesn't like it and is more pro-cancel culture over it?


The problem is that some (many?) are unable to differentiate between "hate speech" and "speech that they hate", and as a result treat both as the same thing, seeking to suppress anything which offends them personally.

While this occurs on both sides, it has progressed within certain subsets of the population into the cult of "cancel culture", where anything the members decides they do not like mandates the excommunication of the "offender" from society...Often, this requires the adherents to create new definitions of words\phrases which differ from what an objective observer (or, in fact, tanyone outside the cult) would understand them to mean, in order to "justify" their actions towards the "wrong-doer".



Pepe
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26 Feb 2021, 10:08 pm

cyberdad wrote:
Pepe wrote:
i)Antifa members aren't 'progressives'/lefties?
News to me.

That's a red herring Pepe. Antifa members are pro-gun and most lefties aren't pro-gun. Being anti-fascist is one thing but arming yourself only opens yourself up to getting labelled or worse. Most of us (including me) subscribe to Gandhi's non-violent protest. Non-violence means not destroying public property or carrying arms. Because leftwing movements tend to be inclusionary we are a broad church and are infiltrated in protests by people who have other motives.


You will have to amend the Wikipedia entry then.
Quote:
Antifa (/ænˈtiːfə, ˈænti(ˈ)fɑː/) is a left-wing anti-fascist and anti-racist political movement in the United States.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifa_(United_States)

Pepe wrote:
ii) Are you saying you think it reasonable to assault someone physically because you are being provoked?


cyberdad wrote:
Andy Ngo is a weasel. I feel like smashing his face when I hear him speak (but of course I adhere to the non-violence mantra :lol: ).


So, the answer to the questions:
Would you throw milkshakes with cement additives at a person who was provoking you?
Would *you* cause someone to have brain trauma because they were provoking you?
Is no and no.

And how do you feel about people who *actually* seriously assault a person?
Do you align yourself with these disreputable characters?



Pepe
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26 Feb 2021, 10:16 pm

cyberdad wrote:
Brictoria wrote:
Bradleigh wrote:
Some people just made stuff up, and you are repeating it.


Such as the claim that Ms Carano's post was solely about "conservative"\"right wing" people? Yes, lots of people are repeating that assertion that someone made up...


Curious then that it's "conservative right wing people" rushing to defend her then. Why do think that is Brictoria? Are they doing out of the goodness of their heart?


Are you saying defending the Truth is something only fascists reich-wingers right lean people do?

I would defend even *you* if you were speaking an important Truth.
It would make me physically sick, for a week or more, but I would still do it. [joke] :mrgreen:



Pepe
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26 Feb 2021, 10:26 pm

ironpony wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
Brictoria wrote:
Bradleigh wrote:
Some people just made stuff up, and you are repeating it.


Such as the claim that Ms Carano's post was solely about "conservative"\"right wing" people? Yes, lots of people are repeating that assertion that someone made up...


Curious then that it's "conservative right wing people" rushing to defend her then. Why do think that is Brictoria? Are they doing out of the goodness of their heart?


I don't understand this right vs left thing when it comes to certain things. Why is it that a lot of people in the US take to two sides like this? Why does the right believe in more freedom of speech when it comes to career and jobs, but the left is doesn't like it and is more pro-cancel culture over it?


The left embraces an intellectual dystopia, from my point of view.
They embrace a collectivist mentality where mutual agreement is more important than the diversity of ideas.

There is also the desire to have power over others through weaponised political correctness.
Many of the left are addicted to virtue-signalling and will find every/any opportunity to service that need.

Just my opinion, of course. 8)



ironpony
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26 Feb 2021, 10:28 pm

Brictoria wrote:
ironpony wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
Brictoria wrote:
Bradleigh wrote:
Some people just made stuff up, and you are repeating it.


Such as the claim that Ms Carano's post was solely about "conservative"\"right wing" people? Yes, lots of people are repeating that assertion that someone made up...


Curious then that it's "conservative right wing people" rushing to defend her then. Why do think that is Brictoria? Are they doing out of the goodness of their heart?


I don't understand this right vs left thing when it comes to certain things. Why is it that a lot of people in the US take to two sides like this? Why does the right believe in more freedom of speech when it comes to career and jobs, but the left is doesn't like it and is more pro-cancel culture over it?


The problem is that some (many?) are unable to differentiate between "hate speech" and "speech that they hate", and as a result treat both as the same thing, seeking to suppress anything which offends them personally.

While this occurs on both sides, it has progressed within certain subsets of the population into the cult of "cancel culture", where anything the members decides they do not like mandates the excommunication of the "offender" from society...Often, this requires the adherents to create new definitions of words\phrases which differ from what an objective observer (or, in fact, tanyone outside the cult) would understand them to mean, in order to "justify" their actions towards the "wrong-doer".


Well the thing is, Cara Dune who Carano played was a very popular character on the show, with viewers now saying they will not watch the show because of it. So instead of canceling actors and loosing money over it, why doesn't the company in this case Disney, just tell people that they have plenty of fans and that if they do not want to watch the show, because she is in it, then don't watch it. Instead of firing someone because some people asked her to be, without it being the majority of fans?

And that's the thing about cancel culture. Instead of wanting to get people fired for things they say, without it counting as technical hate speech, then why not just choose not to watch the actor? For example there are actors I hate and feel they have obnoxious and shallow personalities. But I don't demant that they are fired. That would be more fascistic of me to do that. I just choose not to watch their movies.

Isn't that a good compromise. If you don't like it, don't watch it?



Brictoria
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26 Feb 2021, 10:33 pm

ironpony wrote:
Brictoria wrote:
ironpony wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
Brictoria wrote:
Bradleigh wrote:
Some people just made stuff up, and you are repeating it.


Such as the claim that Ms Carano's post was solely about "conservative"\"right wing" people? Yes, lots of people are repeating that assertion that someone made up...


Curious then that it's "conservative right wing people" rushing to defend her then. Why do think that is Brictoria? Are they doing out of the goodness of their heart?


I don't understand this right vs left thing when it comes to certain things. Why is it that a lot of people in the US take to two sides like this? Why does the right believe in more freedom of speech when it comes to career and jobs, but the left is doesn't like it and is more pro-cancel culture over it?


The problem is that some (many?) are unable to differentiate between "hate speech" and "speech that they hate", and as a result treat both as the same thing, seeking to suppress anything which offends them personally.

While this occurs on both sides, it has progressed within certain subsets of the population into the cult of "cancel culture", where anything the members decides they do not like mandates the excommunication of the "offender" from society...Often, this requires the adherents to create new definitions of words\phrases which differ from what an objective observer (or, in fact, tanyone outside the cult) would understand them to mean, in order to "justify" their actions towards the "wrong-doer".


Well the thing is, Cara Dune who Carano played was a very popular character on the show, with viewers now saying they will not watch the show because of it. So instead of canceling actors and loosing money over it, why doesn't the company in this case Disney, just tell people that they have plenty of fans and that if they do not want to watch the show, because she is in it, then don't watch it. Instead of firing someone because some people asked her to be, without it being the majority of fans?

And that's the thing about cancel culture. Instead of wanting to get people fired for things they say, without it counting as technical hate speech, then why not just choose not to watch the actor? For example there are actors I hate and feel they have obnoxious and shallow personalities. But I don't demant that they are fired. That would be more fascistic of me to do that. I just choose not to watch their movies.

Isn't that a good compromise. If you don't like it, don't watch it?


It's the difference between wanting control (and making decisions) regarding your own life as opposed to wanting control (and making decisions) regarding other people's lives...



Pepe
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26 Feb 2021, 10:42 pm

Quote:
Chait weighed in on the controversy in an essay for the Intelligencer in which he argued there was no 'principled distinction' between the Hollywood blacklist against communists in the 1950s and Carano's termination.


Indeed.



Pepe
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26 Feb 2021, 10:48 pm

Brictoria wrote:

The problem is that some (many?) are unable to differentiate between "hate speech" and "speech that they hate", and as a result treat both as the same thing, seeking to suppress anything which offends them personally.


Tell me about it.
I am gobsmacked when that happens.
The left, in particular, seems to have a glass jaw.

Brictoria wrote:
While this occurs on both sides, it has progressed within certain subsets of the population into the cult of "cancel culture", where anything the members decides they do not like mandates the excommunication of the "offender" from society...


You mean the *cancellation* "of the "offender" from society"...



cyberdad
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26 Feb 2021, 10:51 pm

ironpony wrote:
Well the thing is, Cara Dune who Carano played was a very popular character on the show, with viewers now saying they will not watch the show because of it. So instead of canceling actors and loosing money over it, why doesn't the company in this case Disney, just tell people that they have plenty of fans and that if they do not want to watch the show, because she is in it, then don't watch it. Instead of firing someone because some people asked her to be, without it being the majority of fans?


You need to understand a lot of Star wars fans are using this as a stick to beat Disney. Any excuse really to go after Disney. As a Star Warts fan myself I hated how Disney took the canon started by Lucas and completely changed direction. Apart from John Boyega (who was a fellow fan) I can't really relate to the other "Disney picked" actors like Daisy Ridley, Adam Driver and Kelly Marie Tran (not to mention the strange assortment of female actors who seem to be running the rebellion including the computer animation of Carrie Fisher). Fisher was my least favourite character in the original Star Wars so giving Princess Leia a prominent role in the later canon and not (for example) Mace Windu sucked big time.

Having said all that the Mandalaorian is a big improvement and a step in the right direction. Everyone that is except for Gina Carano. She seemed like some type of circus character and didn't fit Cara Dune (the chatacter she was supposed to play). Her apparent popularity was curious because I couldn't relate to her lack of acting skills. I was hoping they ditched her after Mandalorian 1 so was disappointed they carted her back in season 2.

If kathleen Kennedy was responsible for her getting removed (which there's no evidence she did) its probably the only good thing she has done for the Star Wars franchise.



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26 Feb 2021, 10:55 pm

Brictoria wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
Brictoria wrote:
Bradleigh wrote:
Some people just made stuff up, and you are repeating it.


Such as the claim that Ms Carano's post was solely about "conservative"\"right wing" people? Yes, lots of people are repeating that assertion that someone made up...


Curious then that it's "conservative right wing people" rushing to defend her then. Why do think that is Brictoria? Are they doing out of the goodness of their heart?


It's not just "conservative right wing people" defending her...There are centrists and those on the "left" doing so as well.
Quote:
New York Magazine writer Jonathan Chait has accused Hollywood of engaging in a McCarthy-esque crusade against conservatives after actress Gina Carano was fired from Disney.

Chait weighed in on the controversy in an essay for the Intelligencer in which he argued there was no 'principled distinction' between the Hollywood blacklist against communists in the 1950s and Carano's termination.

Quote:
Chait, who is Jewish, dismissed the outrage surrounding the post, which he said 'was not anti-Semitic by any reasonable definition.'

'The post simply argued (uncontroversially) that the Holocaust grew out of a hate campaign against Jews, which it then likened (controversially) to hatred of fellow Americans for their political views,' he wrote.

'I don't find this post especially insightful. But overheated comparisons to Nazi Germany are quite common, and, more to the point, not anti-Semitic. There is no hint anywhere in this post of sympathy for Nazis or blame for their victims.'

Chait also bemoaned the media's coverage of the controversy as well as the lack of public criticism towards Disney or Carano's talent agency for penalizing the actress for sharing such views.

Source: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9257095/New-York-Magazine-writer-bemoans-McCarthy-esque-silences-conservatives-Gina-Caranos-firing.html


Big deal that Chait is Jewish, so is Ben Shapiro (Carano's new benefactor). Jewish people also support Trump and Bannon (who is an anti-semite) so what's your point? I also don't see any evidence that Chait is centrist as you claim? Even then it's cherry picking.

I actually thought you were going to draw on the Star wars fans to back up your argument given they seem to be Carano's biggest cheer squad in order to have an excuse to attack Disney.



Brictoria
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26 Feb 2021, 11:15 pm

cyberdad wrote:
Brictoria wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
Brictoria wrote:
Bradleigh wrote:
Some people just made stuff up, and you are repeating it.


Such as the claim that Ms Carano's post was solely about "conservative"\"right wing" people? Yes, lots of people are repeating that assertion that someone made up...


Curious then that it's "conservative right wing people" rushing to defend her then. Why do think that is Brictoria? Are they doing out of the goodness of their heart?


It's not just "conservative right wing people" defending her...There are centrists and those on the "left" doing so as well.
Quote:
New York Magazine writer Jonathan Chait has accused Hollywood of engaging in a McCarthy-esque crusade against conservatives after actress Gina Carano was fired from Disney.

Chait weighed in on the controversy in an essay for the Intelligencer in which he argued there was no 'principled distinction' between the Hollywood blacklist against communists in the 1950s and Carano's termination.

Quote:
Chait, who is Jewish, dismissed the outrage surrounding the post, which he said 'was not anti-Semitic by any reasonable definition.'

'The post simply argued (uncontroversially) that the Holocaust grew out of a hate campaign against Jews, which it then likened (controversially) to hatred of fellow Americans for their political views,' he wrote.

'I don't find this post especially insightful. But overheated comparisons to Nazi Germany are quite common, and, more to the point, not anti-Semitic. There is no hint anywhere in this post of sympathy for Nazis or blame for their victims.'

Chait also bemoaned the media's coverage of the controversy as well as the lack of public criticism towards Disney or Carano's talent agency for penalizing the actress for sharing such views.

Source: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9257095/New-York-Magazine-writer-bemoans-McCarthy-esque-silences-conservatives-Gina-Caranos-firing.html


Big deal that Chait is Jewish, so is Ben Shapiro (Carano's new benefactor). Jewish people also support Trump and Bannon (who is an anti-semite) so what's your point? I also don't see any evidence that Chait is centrist as you claim? Even then it's cherry picking.

I actually thought you were going to draw on the Star wars fans to back up your argument given they seem to be Carano's biggest cheer squad in order to have an excuse to attack Disney.


Why would you expect that...You stated:
cyberdad wrote:
Curious then that it's "conservative right wing people" rushing to defend her then.


I was simply producing evidence that it isn't only "conservative right wing people" defending her, as was implied in the statement...

It's not a case of only "conservative right wing people" defending her - It's a case of "a minority of the left who give the appearance of having authoritarian views" persecuting her (and anyone who speaks out against them).



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26 Feb 2021, 11:27 pm

ironpony wrote:
Well the thing is, Cara Dune who Carano played was a very popular character on the show, with viewers now saying they will not watch the show because of it. So instead of canceling actors and loosing money over it, why doesn't the company in this case Disney, just tell people that they have plenty of fans and that if they do not want to watch the show, because she is in it, then don't watch it. Instead of firing someone because some people asked her to be, without it being the majority of fans?

And that's the thing about cancel culture. Instead of wanting to get people fired for things they say, without it counting as technical hate speech, then why not just choose not to watch the actor? For example there are actors I hate and feel they have obnoxious and shallow personalities. But I don't demant that they are fired. That would be more fascistic of me to do that. I just choose not to watch their movies.

Isn't that a good compromise. If you don't like it, don't watch it?


That is a good question. Why do you think Disney decided to drop the actor in a way that could anger certain people? Could it be that they thought that they might have less to lose in that decision?

And there is weird circular logic going around, saying that the people who did not want to watch her, should have just cancelled Disney instead, because 'cancel culture' is bad, so the people who hate cancel culture are going to cancel Disney.

This is how one finds out that their politics is not as popular as they think it is. And this comes off of a long time the Left had to deal with a lot of things where Disney would not allow anything LGBT or something, but suddenly the Right is acting like this is new.

Did the Right join the rage when Disney went back on their promise of having Love Simon on Disney+?


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27 Feb 2021, 12:28 am

Well as I understand it, the reason why Gina made this comeback in the first place, was because people were coming after her because she was a republican, if I have that correct.

But why does do the republicans and the democrats have to keep attacking each other like this, why not just both groups be happy, and why turn it into a big online p##sing contest? Because if people hadn't kept attacking her online, then she wouldn't have made the comeback, and Disney would not feel they would have had to play into the p###sing contest as a result.



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27 Feb 2021, 1:22 am

Iphone31966 wrote:
I'm trying to see what she actually said. I guess she is comparing todays society like nazi Germany. I think I agree with that. I am raised Jewish and I would agree with that.

I can give an example. In the United States of America. There are 33% with Bachelor Degree in charge and controlling everything. 66% majority without Bachelor Degree. 66% majority are slaves to a system that 33% is running.

The vast majority of people with bachelor's degrees are not among the much smaller group of people who are "in charge." And even the people "in charge" are not able to control everything.

Of course it's true that, other factors being equal, people with bachelor's degrees have various advantages over people who don't have bachelor's degrees.

But the mere existence of a social hierarchy does not make this country like Nazi Germany. People without bachelor's degrees are not being systematically rounded up, sterilized, sent to labor camps, or killed.


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27 Feb 2021, 2:20 am

Mona Pereth wrote:
Iphone31966 wrote:
I'm trying to see what she actually said. I guess she is comparing todays society like nazi Germany. I think I agree with that. I am raised Jewish and I would agree with that.

I can give an example. In the United States of America. There are 33% with Bachelor Degree in charge and controlling everything. 66% majority without Bachelor Degree. 66% majority are slaves to a system that 33% is running.

The vast majority of people with bachelor's degrees are not among the much smaller group of people who are "in charge." And even the people "in charge" are not able to control everything.

Of course it's true that, other factors being equal, people with bachelor's degrees have various advantages over people who don't have bachelor's degrees.

But the mere existence of a social hierarchy does not make this country like Nazi Germany. People without bachelor's degrees are not being systematically rounded up, sterilized, sent to labor camps, or killed.


Actually, Hitler and Stalin made it a priority so send the 'intellectual' class to the camps.



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27 Feb 2021, 2:47 am

ironpony wrote:
But why does do the republicans and the democrats have to keep attacking each other like this, why not just both groups be happy, and why turn it into a big online p##sing contest? Because if people hadn't kept attacking her online, then she wouldn't have made the comeback, and Disney would not feel they would have had to play into the p###sing contest as a result.


She was also doing anti-mask stuff, which can get people killed, and spreading unfounded election conspiracy theories along the lines of the kind that created a failed coup that tried to upend democracy. I hope those things are not just Republican politics.


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