Reply personal responsibility is a crock: here is why

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You contradict yourself.

Life circumstances beyond our control are not always chosen.

Did a child born without legs chose this disability?  Does a mother struck in the head by a stray bullet choose to be in a coma?  Do people who lose their jobs due to factory closures choose to be unemployed?

Specifically, who are the young people who think they are entitled to 5 million dollars?

And, specifically who has handed these participation trophies at? What are the name of the schools? Who are the name of the people who organized this? Evidence?



I guess this is not what I see. I see it differently. Maybe this could be true for some but not all. For some it was promoted as though that they had to do a,b,c and they would receive d,e,f. That's the true problem. There is no entitlement or demand for unearned things. No, the issue is these young people feel they did everything they were told to do by the system. Where is what was promised to me? They feel cheated and rightfully so. Think about it this way. You were sold a bed with promise of certain features. The features don't work. Wouldn't you feel ripped off and want your money back? And, what I'm talking about is the effort was going to college and college would get you a job. They feel as though they did put in the effort as the system said.



What are you talking about? Are you talking about reparations to black people for slavery and past wrongs? Here is the thing. Black people were brought over here through slave ships and made to work on plantations. This helped to shape their outlook on life and they had children who they raised. Now, compound this with racism and how they're treated over the decades, years and centuries. This affects their outlook and their way of thinking. And, this affects what their wealth is and the ability to generate wealth.

I think black people do deserve some form of reparations for past wrongs and the wrongs that are still done to them including police brutality.

Last edited by cubedemon6073 on 26 Jan 2021, 8:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Why would anyone choose to be a loser?

Exactly!

Check out the story of Phineas Gage and tell me what you think.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phineas_Gage

Not contradicting. Just answering two different questions. Some people really DO choose to be losers.

AND some things really are beyond our control. Some people are victims by choice. Other people are victims of circumstance.

I’ve already answered most of these questions. Not going to repeat myself.

Black people aren’t alone in playing the victim card, and not all black people share that attitude. When you consider how many times minorities have produced people who have accumulated wealth, or even disabled people who have achieved greatness, you can’t honestly say that being black, gay, or disabled really matter. Being black doesn’t mean you HAVE to stay poor, being gay doesn’t mean you can’t have a wedding cake, and being disabled doesn’t NECESSARILY mean there’s absolutely NOTHING you can do in life. Sometimes the girl with Down’s syndrome wins beauty pageants. The Hispanic kid in a bad neighborhood can move out when he’s old enough, girls can become welders and boys can become florists, and amputees can run marathons. But people justify failure all the time by citing things such as race. In almost every instance of police brutality, the victim was acting in such a way as to arouse suspicion. If they were under the influence of drugs and alcohol, they likely chose to be high. If they ran from police, they chose to run. If they were argumentative, they chose to be. Almost every time the victims could have prevented what happened.

How about a case study? Breonna Taylor is probably the best example of the system going completely wrong. Hers was a senseless death, and there’s no arguing it any other way. She is a legitimate example of a true victim—partly a victim of her culture (specifically the drug subculture) and partly a victim to failed criminal justice policies. She wasn’t herself guilty of any wrong doing. She only had the misfortune of being linked to a criminal. It might have been police bullets that ended her life, but it was her connection to Jamarcus Glover that brought them there.

Did Breonna kill herself? No. The only thing she did remotely wrong was hold money for a guy. It’s a little sketch, but as far as I’m aware it’s not a crime. I worked some bankruptcy cases back in the day and that’s useful information to have. All that happened was someone broke the door in sometime late in the night and her boyfriend fired a gun as a warning. Police are well within their rights to return fire, which is basically what happened. White police were not targeting Breonna Taylor for being black. POLICE were acting consistently with how any police officer would handle a violent suspect, except they were not in uniform, nor were they in regular police cars. Walker was acting reasonably to protect himself.

The police officers in question were doing nothing except what the job called for. Riots broke out when the police officers were not convicted of anything and let go. Was anyone disputing that the cops had probable cause? No, except maybe Jamarcus, but nobody was rioting about it. The riots broke out because a BLACK WOMAN died and it was WHITE POLICE who killed her. No one bothered to ask about her possible connection to a criminal. No one asked whether police were justified in returning fire. A black woman was killed by white men.

And that’s my point. The outrage should be that an individual was killed by police due to a breakdown in the criminal justice system. We should ALL be rioting for that reason alone. Forget about race.

But the rioters don’t want to forget about race. They want to MAKE this about race. The victim cards come out and people riot because BLACK people somehow are entitled to a separate, lower standard for criminal justice than what other people get.

Breonna was not a loser by choice. Property owners victimized by rioters and looters are not losers by choice. Those who behave unreasonably by rioting and looting ARE losers in that they are behaving as victims, yet by playing the role of victim they are making the CHOICE to be losers. They are sending the message that “we are perpetual losers and we demand that you shape your existence around us.” Cultural and societal change, especially where justice is concerned, is often a gradual process, nobody wants to hear “well, that’s just a problem with culture,” but individuals do have the ability in America to rise above culture and influence. These are not people calling for cultural change. They are calling for special rules that only apply to them while as a culture they engage in self-destruction. Breonna’s name (“say her name,” right?) has been dragged through the mud, the muck, and the mire of a criminal culture that prefers lawlessness to a justice system originally intended to protect them. If this is a nation of laws, then we are all subject to those laws equally. Special rules just for minorities will not stop bad things from happening to minorities; it will only make things worse.

"The victim cards come out and people riot because
BLACK people somehow are entitled to a separate,
lower standard for criminal justice than what other people get."

Just Curious Are
You Able to Defend
This Claim With Actual
Linked Evidence; Will Be

Interested in What You have to say...

As Part of Personal Responsibility for Defending Claims...

Or Perhaps

It's Just Your Opinion...

And In That Case for now

it doesn't pass a 'smell test'....

Dude, apparently You Haven't Been
Black Before And Had to Worry About
Being Stopped by A Cop Cause You Are

Carrying
A Fishing Pole...

At a Frigging Park...

i Have some idea
Where You Live Do

You Have Any Black
Family Members or Friends
To Share Real Life Stories with...

It Ain't Pretty Buddy; It Ain't Pretty at all;

Everyone Wants to Go Fishing Without Being

Pulled Over For Carrying

A Fishing Pole...

Yet it's okay
if the Wild Life
Officer Checks
A Fishing License from a Boat...

Well, the Difference Where i live
At Least Is White Folks Don't Have to Worry about this....

There is NO EXCUSE FOR IT ABSOLUTELY NO EXCUSE

particularly when the real victim works 2 Jobs, 80 Hours
A Week to Support a Family In a Truly Upscale Neighborhood
With A Super Nice Car Getting Pulled Over in the Vehicle for

Just Coming

Home late

At Night

From a Second Job

And From Being Frigging

African American in a Super Nice Car...

People Wanna Be Free my Friend What

You are saying is BS here as far as i see

at least so far...

unless you

Provide

The Evidence for real...

OBTW that Black Dude Supporting

A Big Family Working 80 Hours a Week

Is A Real Winner; Just Curious, Do You Consider

Yourself a Winner; As There is No Doubt Just by

The Way He Walks that The Black Dude is a Winner; Common Sight...

Win or

Lose

it comes

From Within First

It Comes From trying

to understand how other

People are Different and Having

A Little Compassion and Kindness for all

Instead of Raising oneself Up a Notch

above the even less fortunate...

There are People who
Bring Other Folks Up...

There Are People who
Call Other People Victims
For Obvious Reasons the Same....

So What Are You? A Winner or a Loser... Just Curious....

i am Definitely a Winner Now; Yet Not always this way,

so i have a bit of insight on the other side too; Where Empathy thrives Most....

You Wanna Know What Happens When The Phrase 'Victim Class' Becomes a Slur on the
Back of the Real Victims Who Are Not Treated Equally With Basic Humane Civil Rights;

And Do You Wanna Know What Happens When 'Social Justice', What the So-called

'Christian God Jesus' Champions the Most as Love For All; Loving Your Enemy;

Turning the Other Cheek, And All that Jazz; Yes, When 'Social Justice Warrior'

Becomes A Pejorative

Instead of Do

What Jesus

Will Do considering

You Name Yourself a Christian;

I'll tell You What Happens, You Get

A Noose Hanging From a Scaffold at

the Capitol of a Country; You Get Banners

Hanging; Yes, Hanging, Promoting "Jesus 2020"

And 'Jesus Saves'; And Just Like Magic, Jesus Changes into

Trump Like a 'Bloody Wine of Bread

With A Gun'

on 5th

Avenue; While
His Subjects

Who are Sheep
Change into Goats

Per Metaphor of Matthew Report

And Shoot Themselves in the Frigging

Foot As Their New Savior Ain't Gonna

Pardon 'em and Turn Them Back into Sheep....

It Seems That Lifting a Few Veils oF iGnorance

Is Still Past Due from 2000 Years ago or so same.... For 'Personal Responsbility'

Just A General Assessment of the Condition of the Country now True.... still...

What About

Love What

About

Personal Responsibility

Of Love or is that even

An 'Objective' of a Christian Way of
Life Anymore; Ain't Been Seeing it much
Down Here in the Unmasked South oF iGNoRaNCE

In Pandemic killing
Ways at Church

Or

Walmart Same...

Generally Speaking
The Black Folks Wear

Masks apparently their
Jesus still Loves... in real life practice....

Just a few casual observations as Philosophy Chews 'the fat'....

@aghogday: WRT the line you quoted from me, bear in mind that in this instance emphasizing the mindset that BLACK people are affected or disaffected has to do with what culture finds the Breonna Taylor case most relevant. I don’t believe ALL black people feel this way or that way, nor do I presume to speak for any minority save for my own.

When individual rights are breached and such senseless tragedies as Breonna’s happen, we should ALL be outraged because if they can do it to her, they can do it to us, too, and they won’t cut anyone a break simply because your skin color is a different shade than Breonna’s. The tragedy is not that a black woman was killed. The tragedy is that a person was needlessly killed. And to add insult to injury, as though her death wasn’t enough, they raise her up as some martyr for their cause. I’m sorry...but I just can’t imagine Breonna going to bed that night thinking, “hmmm...what else do I want to do before tomorrow? oh, I know! How about getting shot to death so other black people can stick it to white cops? Yeah! Sounds good!”

Instead, what happens? We don’t see it as something that erodes individual rights. We see riots and looting, which only sends the message that, meh, that’s just black people problems. It’s black people problems because a small segment of the black population wave the “say her name” banner demanding that police enforce all laws EXCEPT when it has to do with a black person. THEY play the victim card, and Breonna’s face is the icon painted on it. Breonna was the victim, not them. But her image and her name are used as a license to steal and destroy. And that is by choice. Breonna didn’t get a choice. Those who still live still have a choice, which makes their destructive deeds even more horrifying.

America learned an important lessons in civil rights once upon a time: Separate is NOT equal. If one person can be held to a lower standard of justice, then all people can be. If you want to stop incidents like rioting and looting and disrespecting the memory of people like Breonna, hold all individuals to the same standard without considering race or any other background and apply justice evenly across the board.

But, of course, victims are quite useful in the political arena, and I suspect many more people in America are going to line up to get their victim card punched. I’d love to be wrong about that.

To more directly respond, aghog, Mississippi is roughly evenly split with predominantly minorities in the Delta and roughly a white majority most everywhere else. People tend to have this racist image of Mississippi, and there’s enough in media out there that pours confirmation bias fuel on the racial fire. That’s not what life is actually like here. In the Delta and in the larger cities, the majority of folks are black as are their law enforcement. And, look...I’ve seen how brutal Mississippi cops can be, and ALL of us, I’m sure, whether black or white, have gotten “the talk.” And they are fluffy teddy bears compared with Louisiana cops. The races in Mississippi may not be eager to spread out and live side-by-side, but that doesn’t mean we’re at war with each other, either. When bad things happen, it’s a New Orleans problem, or a Memphis problem, or a Chicago problem. We just don’t do that here. Black people can go hunting and fishing as they like, no different than the white guys, and nobody gives anyone a hard time about it. No doubt we have our share of racist people, but most of us just don’t have time for all that drama. Our lives are hard enough as it is in a Mississippi. We take good care of each other, and we don’t freakin talk about skin color when we do it.

My point still stands. There are victims who become victims through unfortunate circumstance and there are victims because it’s a way of life. I consider myself a winner. I am hopeful that all people can live at peace with each other. I’m optimistic that there are opportunities for all people regardless of birth or ability. And I live my life in such a way that hopefully reflects that. I do the best I can, anyway. I don’t win at everything, but I’m a work in progress that seeks to keep progressing. And I don’t hate people who literally CANNOT help their situation.

"It’s black people problems because a small segment of the black population wave the
say her name banner demanding that police enforce all laws EXCEPT when it has to do with a black person"

No, They Are Demanding Equal Treatment; Not Special Treatment; Regardless of the
Findings of this Particular Case; 93 Percent of the BLM Protests Were Peaceful and

Yes, There are Bad Apples on Both Sides; Yet Your Statement
Here is Not Indicative of the Problem or the Solutions Requested;

Again; The Issue is Systematic Racism; There is no Question it
Still exists in this Country. Spent Quite a Bit of Time in Biloxi;

And Yes, it Seems From Overall Appearance
Fairer of Course As There is a more Equal
Distribution of White Folks and Black Folks;

Not That Way where i Live;

Perhaps You haven't
Seen all the Systematic
Racism; Yet It does Exist now.

And A New Administration
That Doesn't 'Turn the Other
Cheek' To 'Domestic Terrorism' related

And the such; Is gonna make a Huge Difference; Compared
To What We Had With 'the Great White God Trump' as metaphor of Course....

Last edited by aghogday on 27 Jan 2021, 5:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Yes, there have been bad things that have happened to good people due to bad circumstances. I have been there myself but it was nothing like losing your life or costing you your life or employment or your family. I am sure every one of us have gotten in trouble for things we didn't do but that is so minor compared to what happened to people like Amanda Knox and Brianna Taylor.

So I lost recess because someone hit one of my classmates and he blamed it on me because he didn't want his friend to get in trouble so I got the blame. Yep trivial and I had many recesses after that.

Being Angry And Productively Using That Emotion is Surely Useful.

Hating Anything Long Term Is surely Self-Destructive; Just Like
Not Having an Avenue to Use the Emotion of Anger Productively;

Thing is my FRiEnD,

None of Us are in a Position
To Judge Who Can And Who
Cannot Help Themselves

As We are Not

Living in their Shoes;

There are Lots of difficulties

That are Impossible to Assess on the Outside...

And It's Very Possible Any one of us may come

to understand that on a very personal basis

And see where

We were so wrong

in Judging Others Blind As Soul...

Indeed, Judging People As Losers is a Losing Proposition all the way....

Obviously, We Judge People Everyday to Survive; Yet Love Wins Greater in the Long Run...

Winner of Loving Others as Again, As Discussed Before; Giving; It is the Way to Heaven Now as Science Agrees...

Funny, i'm basically Parroting the Message of Jesus as It's Just Natural to do that as a Loving Human Being....

And often

Atheist Folks

Hear it More Than Christians

For Obvious Reasons as Christianity

'The Religion', Excludes Folks Who Are Not Like them; go figure; Human Nature too....

Yet Indeed, Some Folks Ascend and Transcend Humanity's Darker Natural Colors... of Soul...

That indeed

Is A Self-fulfilling
Rewarding Job to Do

For Personal Responsibility that Extends to 'All'....

If those around a person are presenting a certain usual effort and this presentation has been presented to a person since growing up and it turns out to be skewed or a bunch of half truths now what? What exactly is the usual effort required? Now, imagine you have a whole generation who followed the "usual effort" across the country that was presented to them which turned out to be a bunch of half truths. And, they have zero clue as to how to proceed.

No, you didn't answer my questions. You are giving the exact same conservative talking points albeit in a more sophisticated way.



owe me wealth just for breathing????? HUH? Where do you even get this twaddle from? Who has said this or demanded wealth for breathing?

Identity politics? Huh? What in the hell are you talking about? Are we meaning to be ourselves? Again, that's another thing that was promoted to our generation and the younger gens. Be true to ourselves, don't be fake and don't care what others think. If this is identity politics then again it was created by the older gens.



Why would anyone freely choose to lose? Again more conservative talking points.



How do you figure this?

And, can you define what a collectivist society is in your own words please? I know what I think it is but I want to know what you think it is.



How would this objectivist society suss out what is what? And, how is mediocrity and laziness rewarded exactly when we're encouraged by others to never be average or always exceed average? If everyone exceeded mediocrity and average then wouldn't what is considered average and mediocre change rendering the terms meaningless?



What is minimalist exactly? What is your criteria for minimalist? Are all objectivists going to agree with the idea of what minimalist is and what should be done by the government or not? Not even the founding fathers agreed with everything and they had to come to a series of compromises.



You never answered these questions? What specific cases like I asked for?



Again, no one can do the usual effort if what was promoted for success was skewed.



I still stand by this.



wealth for breathing? What are you talking about? Who says this? Who are the people or persons?



I still stand by what I say here.



I still stand by what I say here.



You answered nothing. You give the same conservative talking points that again sounds very sophisticated then the others I've spoken to.



And, why would they have this attitude or mentality?



What are the ratios for those who did vs. those who didn't? Otherwise, you're just presenting anecdotal examples.



Maybe it means you're more likely to be. Again, where are the ratios?



What are the ratios of those with down's syndrome who enter and win vs those who enter and lose?



Again, ratios? Where is your quantitive analysis for these claims you made?



And, why would they do that if they didn't believe it was true or noticed some pattern to it?



Give me 3 examples in which the victim was acting in a way to arouse suspicion and what do you consider arousing suspicion?



What are the circumstances that surround the choice and yes this is very relevant?



Again, what are the prevailing circumstances?



Again, what are the prevailing circumstances?

Cube: You have me confused with someone who feels he has to defend what he says. I’m not presenting an argument. Plus I don’t go digging for evidence that nobody else is going to believe anyway. If I know something, I say something. Academics and jurors argue evidence until someone gets tired of arguing and declares the last word the winner. Everyone else just lives life. In my experience, demands for evidence are just a tool for people to get out of believing something that is true.

I’ve answered your questions. What you do with that is your responsibility.

Another thing, I don't understand.

So, if you don't feel the need to defend what you say or believe nor presenting or defending an argument then why respond to anything I say at all? You could've just ignored the entire thread, passed it upon by and live your life like everyone else with Cranial-Rectal Embedment. What was your goal exactly? What was it that you were trying to accomplish?

And, like I said you answered nothing and gave the same conservative talking points without evidence or how you derived them. Only difference was you gave them in more sophisticated ways and more detail then the NT conservative but you said a lot and said nothing.