The "Black Hole" of woke....

Post Reply New Topic

Personally I'm wondering where everyone is encountering so many hoards of people with non-traditional pronouns that they get mixed up and can't remember which to use.

I think the topic is overblown.

I'm totally face blind and I don't make eye contact. Chances are I wouldn't recognise the person or know their name if I didn't know them well, but if they'd made a point of telling me a pronoun choice, I'd remember that.

I've never actually met anybody who did not prefer to be referred to as either "he" or "she."

But if someone says they want to be referred to by a certain pronoun, then I'll refer to them by that pronoun.

Excellent point.

This was basically my experience. I’ve known two people (young adults) who preferred a different pronoun. It wasn’t hard to remember at all. It was memorable because I don’t encounter it that often.

I know a fair number of people through my kids, and a few my age.
Most of them use "they".
I don't even need pronouns when I talk to them directly.
I don't need to say "Hi, They!"

This situation is so rare you will never encounter this situation or will once in your lifetime.

I have encountered it at my local munches because trans gender raters are higher in them. But then I again I don't interact with people much so I never had to have this issue with them. I have decided if I do land in this situation, I will simply just ask and explain my disability to them and how it takes me longer to remember for it to sink into my brain. I can't expect them to be mind readers. It is my responsibility to advocate for myself. If they don't want to believe me, then it is their problem and I will just avoid them. Some people will just be a**holes.

I agree no one needs to be an a***hole about it, and honest mistakes happen.

It's different if the person is stubborn or bigoted about other people's gender or sexuality overall.

OK, my style doesn't have to be yours, for obvious reasons. But the key to resolving the inevitable conflict is to recognize they have a right to their identity, and that by not using their proper pronouns, you are infringing on that. When different needs collide (yours v theirs) it is going to happen. If you can find a way to recognize that conflict of needs, without trashing theirs, and without apologizing for yours, go for it. I'm not thinking up an easy response right now, but I'm sure one can be created. Anything said with tact and consideration should do.

I don't think that asking people be considerate of the feelings of others is a demand, but maybe we could be more flexible in how we approach the conversation.

Ultimately this is about caring about someone's needs. A person owns the right to their own identity whether it be their name, ethnicity, gender or pronoun. I've had enough incidents of people miss-attributing various parts of my identity to know how frustrating it is to deal with. But I also know it isn't usually intentional or mean spirited, so a simple polite conversation is the best way to handle it. The same concepts should apply in the conversation of pronouns.

Good point. I interact with two.

I can remember two.

I accept that for some people even two may be difficult, and they'll need to decide how to handle that.

I avoid high maintenance in my own identity. I'm just a human. If I feel I might inadvertently make a mistake I'll just avoid it altogether. What I see sends a 'deposit' to my brain and if accounts payable doesn't equal accounts receivable I'm just out. I resent being duped and that's what it feels like. It feels as though someone is saying to me, "don't trust what you see, recognize, etc..." I don't want to participate anymore.

No.

Agree to disagree. To me, its not much different than someone refusing to use my name, or all the times I had found someone trying to be clever and changing one letter in my maiden name to make it an entirely different ethnicity. But being right in usage is less important than actually caring about the person's POV.

No I am not suggesting you are being racist or mysogynistic.

let me give you an example. Let's say an African American backpacker is hiking through Asia. He travels across the border into North Korea. The local villagers have never seen a black man before either in books or TV due to access to media being blocked by the north Korean government. They see the dude and run into their houses and lock their doors. Are they being racist? no. Are they ignorant? well not really, it's not their fault, they probably don't even know that black people exist.

Now our intrepid backpacker crosses the border into rural south Korea without being spotted by the authorities at the border. The traditional South Korean villagers he comes across know he is a black man because they have seen black people on TV. But they never seen a black man in person. The whole village gathers around and smiles at the backpacker. At first the backpacker is flattered at all the attention and smiling faces. But then the villagers all want to take turns taking selfies with the blackman and touching his hair. Now the blackman is offended and writes in his travel blog how racist South Koreans are.
Is the blackman right? in his lived experience people in America make fun of his hair so he is sensitive about people laughing at his appearance and touching his hair. So his experience of humiliation is real, regardless of what anyone thinks he is experiencing a racist incident.
Are the South korean villagers being racist? most likely no. In their culture they are just being friendly and curious. In this instance both parties are correct

Our backpacker finally makes it to Seoul and catches a train to find a hotel. Many people see the blackman and decide to move when he sits next to them. The blackman is angry and offended. He writes more in his blog about how racist Koreans are.
Is the blackman right? in his lived experience people in America white women cross the road when they see him so he is sensitive about people avoiding him. So his experience of humiliation is real, regardless of what anyone thinks he is experiencing a racist incident.
Are the South korean train passengers being racist? You have to give people the benefit of the doubt. If they are not familiar with black people and they move away it might be because they are anxious or scarred. They are not doing harm. In this instance both parties are correct

Finally our backpacker makes it to his hotel. As he enters he is passed by a group of Koreans in their 20s who are shocked when they turn around and see him. They are all educated in the US and know about black people and racism. They all laugh at him and comment on his appearance. One of the girls touches his hair as he walks past and she says in Korean "Oh my god, it really feels like steel wool" and the group laugh and point. The blackman is angry and offended.

s the blackman right? in his lived experience people in America white people are openly racist to him so he is sensitive about people calling him names and laughing. So his experience of humiliation is real, regardless of what anyone thinks he is experiencing a racist incident.
Are the South korean 20 year olds being racist? Yes of course. They are quite familiar with black people but they chose with intent to laugh at him and touch him without his permission. The group knew their laughter and derision would cause harm. The girl knew that in America she would not be allowed to touch a black person's hair but she felt emboldened because this was in South Korea. In this instance only the black man is correct.

What's changed in the last scenario is the intent.

Like how a trans person may assume someone with autism is being transphobic for keep asking for their pronouns or trying to avoid misgendering them by using gender neutral terms for them because they have had thus experience with people purposly not using their pronouns and pretending they are not able to do it and there is no effort. So this screws people with disabilities over who may have issues with remembering things when it's not part if their daily life so this includes pronouns too when somone uses different ones that don't match their gender appearance. Like if they were born male but still look like a guy but uses her/she but is a Tom boy.

Trans people claim they can tell but I always doubt it because are they mind readers? How do they know if it's intentional or if someone is really trying? What about disabilities? Do they think they're doing it on purpose for not remembering their pronouns fast enough?

Put the shoe on the other foot. What if an autistic man walks up to an NT woman and tries to talk to her to ask for directions. She ignores him so he touches her on the shoulder. She screams assault! a group rush the autistic man and he's pinned to the ground and the police come and take him to the station where he is charged with assault.

The autistic man is confused because he doesn't know why he is being punished?