The atheist crusades must stop!

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ToadOfSteel
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27 Aug 2008, 10:47 am

Sand wrote:

There is no doubt that some religious organizations have done wonderful things and some have done horrible things. The important question is whether it is religion is the inspiration for the good works or whether the people in these organizations would have acted well whether or not they were religious. And if religious organizations have done horrible things, does that indicate something about the power of religion to divert people from acting badly?

The only ones that religious organizations that do horrible things are deceiving is themselves...

Sand
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27 Aug 2008, 11:12 am

Determining which religious organizations are not deceiving themselves seems to be something of a problem, even when the evaluators are other religious organizations.

Fnord
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27 Aug 2008, 1:08 pm

chever wrote:

Fnord wrote:

chever wrote:

War will not cease to be if everyone becomes an atheist

A reading from the Book of Job, fifth chapter, verses one through seven...

JOB 5:1-7 wrote:

"(1) Call now, if there be any that will answer thee; and to which of the saints wilt thou turn? (2) For wrath killeth the foolish man, and envy slayeth the silly one. (4) I have seen the foolish taking root: but suddenly I cursed his habitation. (4) His children are far from safety, and they are crushed in the gate, neither [is there] any to deliver [them]. (5) Whose harvest the hungry eateth up, and taketh it even out of the thorns, and the robber swalloweth up their substance. (6) Although affliction cometh not forth of the dust, neither doth trouble spring out of the ground; (7) Yet man is born unto trouble, as the sparks fly upward."

-KJV

If everyone became an Atheist, who would quote the Bible?

Bible quoting is not the cause of war. There were many horrific wars before Christianity came into being. Usually religion is only a dressing for a real underlying conflict.

I think you missed my point, although it is rather obscure. I was not trying to claim that quoting the Bible leads to war, but that it's human nature to suffer and engage in conflict, as sure "as the sparks fly upward." Whoever that Biblical writer was, he must have noticed the same thing - people naturally disagree, argue, fight, wage war, and suffer for it.

Peace is the exception, not the rule (in my opinion).

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Last edited by Fnord on 27 Aug 2008, 1:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Fnord
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27 Aug 2008, 1:09 pm

duplicate post deleted

slowmutant
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27 Aug 2008, 1:20 pm

ToadOfSteel wrote:

Fnord wrote:

No ... he who lives by the sword gets shot by those with more advanced technology.

And he who lives by more advanced technology also gets shot by more advanced technology

Ultimate survival lies in not liviing by the sword, not dying by the sword. This is survival beyond life and death.

twoshots
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27 Aug 2008, 3:24 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:

twoshots wrote:

iamnotaparakeet wrote:

chever wrote:

iamnotaparakeet wrote:

burnse22 wrote:

slowmutant wrote:

That cartoon is pretty hateful. Disrespect is one thing, but hate is another.

It makes a valid point.

I don't think so. But if somehow the logic were valid, it wouldn't make the point sound.

Do you mean that the argument would be cogent but still ridiculous in truth?

Valid refers to a correct deduction while cogent refers to a correct induction. For an argument to be sound, its premises have to be true, deductions valid, and inductions cogent. However, in modern philosophies, truth is merely an abstract concept, Popper says induction has no logical basis, so we're left with deductions that can only be valid, but never for certain. BS alert!! !

Cogency is the inductive analog of soundness, not validity.

Incorrect. At least according to all of the geometry textbooks I've studied.

I'm not really sure why a geometry book should have its fingers in informal logic, but you may check definitions at wikipedia if you care too. Everything I've ever heard uses cogent for "an inductive argument which is strong and has true premises", and I have taken a course in philosophical logic (and I have the relevant chapter from my textbook on hand...).

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Haliphron
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27 Aug 2008, 4:38 pm

chever wrote:

iamnotaparakeet wrote:

chever wrote:

I like chemistry best. It still has math, but not as extensively as physics.

Physics can be pretty cool. There is a lot of (frequently boring) number crunching though.

iamnotaparakeet wrote:

And studying math for itself is boring to me, well except for geometry which was fun, because it usually seems detached from reality and the word problems are usually written so poorly as to cause questioning of the author's knowledge of English.

Geometry is closely related with reality. Abstract algebra, category theory and fields like them often have a more tenuous relation with reality. (Even they have applications of course.)

Actually, Group Theory(which is Abstract Algebra) has a LOT to do with Reality in terms of it being the basis of modern physics. Furthermore, Abstract and Linear algebra(s) show up frequently in modern physics. What would QM and General Relativity be without Lie Groups?

chever
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27 Aug 2008, 9:50 pm

Haliphron wrote:

Of course

And then there's RSA

http://www.cems.uvm.edu/~voight/Sp2002- ... 26-RSA.pdf

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twoshots
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27 Aug 2008, 10:21 pm

And - let's not forget - Group theory also describes all possible symmetries of wallpaper patterns!

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chever
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27 Aug 2008, 11:24 pm

Group theory is useful for representing the isomorphisms of a graph as well (where the product is of course composition)

I haven't really gotten into abstract algebra yet but it looks exciting

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iamnotaparakeet
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28 Aug 2008, 1:43 am

twoshots wrote:

It appears that school of thought in your textbook would be in the wiki article too. Nevertheless, I had learned the terms under the following definitions:

Valid: the deductive reasoning is correct.

Cogent: the inductive reasoning is correct.

Sound: the forms of reasoning are correct and the premises are true.

Geometry is all about logic, both formal and informal. It just uses or takes from Euclid's Elements for a theme of study.

prometheuspann
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28 Aug 2008, 8:10 am

It bears mentioning that atheism is by definition just another branch of christianity.

There are not buddhist atheists, for instance.

The reason for this is very simple. Christianity is not a religion, its a mental cage created to get jews to pay taxes.
Its diabolization of the yin principle includes diabolization of the subconscious mind, and this in turn puts any kind of real spiritual experience completely out of reach.

Atheism is merely the condition of rebellion against christianity where christianity is an evil anti religion designed to keep people spiritually impaired. The idea of rebellion is correct, but throwing god out with the bathwater is insane.

Atheism is by definition a dogma which can only be held by virtue of not being able to access altered states of consciousness or real spiritual experiences. Such a condition is not the natural human condition and is only obtained via the christian
diabolization of yin. Thus, atheism is just a form of christianity, like any form, it exists to deny people access to spiritual reality. Unlike mainstream christianity, the denomination of christianity called atheism accomplishes this goal not by creating an unresolvable internal psychological war, but by denying that there is anything other than a purely physical reality.

The comedy of this situation is that quantum mechanics has now found god and named it quantum information. Every
assertion of the shamanic paradigm can now be explained rationally using the quantum paradigm.

slowmutant
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28 Aug 2008, 8:22 am

Cyanide wrote:

skafather84 wrote:

and the whole misperception of agnosticism is why i just don't bother and just go along with the title of atheist.

People get even more confused when you bring in the terms "agnostic-atheist" and "agnostic-theist." It baffles me how some people can't understand what they mean...

It's just a bunch of semantic contradictions. Just come out and admit it already.

monty
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28 Aug 2008, 8:55 am

prometheuspann wrote:

It bears mentioning that atheism is by definition just another branch of christianity.

No, it isn't. People can start from any religious point and become agnostic or atheist.

slowmutant
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28 Aug 2008, 9:26 am

prometheuspann wrote:

Catholicism, Baptist, Coptic, these are branches of Christainity. Atheism is NOT just a form of Christianity; I don't know how you came up with that one. Being a Christian myself, I can tell you this with authority. This is some ill-conceived attempt at gaining sympathy for the atheist cause and it doesn't amuse. Wish I knew where all this is going.

monty
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28 Aug 2008, 9:33 am

slowmutant wrote:

This is some ill-conceived attempt at gaining sympathy for the atheist cause and it doesn't amuse. Wish I knew where all this is going.

I don't think so - that person is advocating some type of mystical shamanistic beliefs, not atheism. I think that the most likely explanations are: 1) disorganized, illogical thinking, or 2) trolling.

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