why are feminist obsessed with Nice guys(TM)

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You sure find it handy to cut things out of quotes to try for your own advantage to make your own points while ignoring others points.

WHAT ENTITLES a woman to be mean even to men whom haven't even hit on them yet?
And if their so entitled, then men as well should be entitled to be jerks to such women.

And no, relationships are not like employment, but the dating scene is.+
Even though that in its self is questionable, if you consider what sex files most often for divorces, or initiates the breakup.

What have I cut out? I edit what I'm quoting to respond to what I consider the pertinent points. Where someone has made the same point over and over, I cut that out for the ease of anyone reading. Also, I write a lot. Other people responding to me may write a lot. So that it doesn't get unwieldy, I edit.

I don't think anything entitles anyone to be mean, apropos of nothing, to anyone else. The appropriate response to such depends on the situation and context.

Do you mean something like walking into a bar and a woman you've barely noticed beyond her being one of many other people in there turning to you and saying, 'Don't even think of approaching me.'? I suppose if that happened to me, I'd think the woman was a wee bit vain and a little weird. I would likely give her a look that suggested such - like, "ookaaay, I'm going to go and stand over there, see if I can't put a little distance between us" and carry on with my evening. I might later wonder why she was like that, but pay it no more mind.

(I say that, but I don't drink or go to bars or pubs.)

Where a woman is 'mean' to a man who approaches her, there could be any number of reasons. I gave some above.

I've not really done the dating scene, but even then, I think the UK is (or was) quite different from the US. Because that just strikes me as a weird way to look at it.

And what entitles you to be mean to any woman who does not behave in a manner that you do not approve of? Are you seriously advocating the opinion that women aren't allowed to be mean to you?

As for women not always being up for dealing with pick up attempts, maybe you should make a fake profile on a dating site. Set it up as a woman, and find a picture to use of a woman that you personally find minimally attractive. Put into the profile information as much screwed up twisted crap to turn people off that you can think of. Then just wait for the aggressive messages from men. Then maybe you will start to see why a whole lot of women out there can easily get sick of men's advances very quickly. If you want to be even more disturbed, find a pic of a large breasted woman showing a lot of cleavage for your profile and you'll quickly get messages full of perfect examples of the "entitled to sex" attitude that too many men have.

If you stand out side of the box you will see its a catch 22,

There are women "Jerks" just like there are men jerks, other then its done differently, many women are jerks to the men they reject, so those men carry those resentments as baggage into their next relationship by being jerks them selves. not to say all jerks are jerks for this reason, I am sure many have their own, nor am I saying I am one of them. its just women whom does the accepting or rejecting (the employer), when their mean about it, its a projection of humiliation upon the male and his ego. and you can say its the males fault of how he takes it or what he does with it, but it still affects his ego and his perceptions of women, and that can carry over into relationships.

So women and men are about the same in numbers of real jerks, you cant really address one without addressing the other.

I do believe many men start out as nice guys and just slowly sour.
Same with most women.

Nothing. Mean-ness (which should not extend beyond rudeness) is not appropriate unless a man has ignored polite rebuffs.

However, women -and men- are entitled to not engage with anyone they don't want to engage with. So I am wondering (based on prior posts) what exactly you mean by "mean" and what exactly you mean by "haven't even hit on them yet". A pre-emptive strike of a woman going up to a man who has not so much as looked at her and telling him to not even try is rude and inappropriate (if "not so much as looked at her" is what you mean by "haven't even hit on her yet"). However she is entitled to politely rebuff a man who is attempting to chat her up (even if none of the chat is "hitting on" per se) and she is entitled to escalate to ignoring or even rudeness if he refuses to disengage after being rebuffed.

Age has removed me from having to navigate those social waters but I doubt things have changed that much in the intervening 20 years. Back in the day, I had a personal protocol of polite rebuff always preceding anything ruder and it rarely needed to (although sometimes it did). And I would always disengage with a man who politely rebuffed me if I was approaching.

What a man (and for that matter, a woman) is not entitled to is "a chance". If a woman wants to dismiss you on looks alone without so much as one sentence of chit-chat, that's her prerogative. She doesn't owe you a chance to show you are somebody worth her consideration. Likewise, it's your prerogative to not be interested in any particular woman based on nothing more than what you find attractive. Nobody is entitled to a chance with anybody else.

So, I am to be judged for other mens actions, regardless that I am not other men, just because I am male?

No, I am just extra sensitive about some things, I have been told my body language is so bad others see me as threatening or that creepy looking fellow. when I am totally unaware I gave off such an aura. since I been helped to realize these things I been trying hard to change it. but I still been stigmatized by how others have treated me because of it. many times have I been insulted by women when I had paid them no attentions before, nor did they want much of anything to do with me, all my dating starts over the net giving them a chance to know me first, otherwise I am crap out of luck. and I was bullied from first grade to last and I couldnt understand why until only but lately. people strongly react to body language, its just I was blind too it. so no, it wasn't from me hitting on the women, I had become to shy for that.

Absolutely not. I am just saying that before anyone starts to talk about how women act so terrible towards men, they should really try to get an understanding of how a woman could end up that way.
i am not saying that it is ok, just that there is a reason. It is not some sort of personal vendetta against all men, as many of these posts seem to be suggesting. I don't think it is right no matter what the sex of the offender. And since you specifically called out women, that is how I framed my response. If you had said the exact same thing but replaced the word "women" with "men," my reply would have been framed in a similar tone.

I can definitely relate to the issues that arise from poor body language and poor facial expressions. But to be fair, it isn't women who react poorly to this, it is people.

As for getting to know potential dates online first, that is not a bad idea at all. I discovered during my years of searching for another that face to face usually ends up with you not actually knowing anything about the other, as relationships that begin in person tend to be people pretending to be who they think you want them to be. Which leads to disappointment, confusion, and anger. Online communications is also fraught with dishonesty, but it seems to be easier for most people to admit to their shortcomings and to let you get to know the real person.

Women are rejected by men, you know. I bet there are any number of women you would not want to be in a relationship with, would be aghast if approached by them. I'll even bet there's a hell of a lot of women you wouldn't go to bed with.

Even if we go with the received wisdom that men approach women - how many women are not even approached? Within that paradigm that, too, is rejection.

And yes, it is up to the rejected how they deal with rejected advances. It is one of the toughest knocks to take. There's a fairly simple suggestion that, if you're not up to the rejection, don't make the advance. Life is messy, and a lot of rejection is hard to take and can bleed into how one might view the rejecting sex. As much as I appreciate that, well, tough.

My issue here - the issue/subject of the thread - is that said male jerks sometimes fall into the Nice Guy category. I capitalise the term to differentiate from those guys who are actually nice. Nice Guy is a particular mindset that runs on martyrdom, a sense of entitlement, and general jerkiness. Yet they are quite convinced they are nice, and can't understand why women don't flock to be with them. Therefore the fault lies not in themselves - they're 'nice', after all, and what more could a woman want? - but rather in women and feminists and 'manginas' etc, all of whom are in some way conspiring to do them down.

Some of them might not hate men, but they certainly don't understand or respect us. I actually appreciate several things that starvingartist and LKL have said. But that's like saying that men in the '20s occasionally did gracious things for girls. (They did.) You wouldn't put up with a guy who only acknowledged your point-of-view if it already fit his understanding and goals. Why should I put up with that from you?

As recently as four years ago, I would have written much of what sononghandi wrote in this thread. That's what I grew up with. Girls who came to my apartment would notice that the sides of the toilet base were clean. They'd come for a shoulder to lean on after they got in a fight with their bestie. I like relationships. It's just that my male friends were better friends. Girls (and some boys) on this thread have said that "nice guys" aren't really nice because they want something back. I takes one to know one.

I didn't have trouble meeting girls. Hookups were easy as long as I was willing to let my schedule be at the mercy of girls' moods. They say that a guy with obsessive interests "doesen't have a life," but then they assume that I'll be so obsessed with them that I'll wait while they make up their minds. I'm not. The last time this happened:

I was moving some of my things from an old apartment to my current city. The next-door roommate was a cute freshman girl, and she'd always been friendly. She sent an SMS when she saw my things vanishing, saying that I had better not have left without saying goodbye, and I assured her that I still had a couple runs to make. The next time I was there, she sent a text in the afternoon asking whether I'd ever gone walking down by the lake late at night. It was worded mildly suggestively, and I indicated that I was interested in hanging out. Nothing. It was getting closer to evening, and I had a four-hour drive, so I got the rest of my stuff in the car and hit the highway. I got a text late that night asking "Where are you?!" Um, having a life. Where are you?

Marriage and LTR prospects are also easy to come by, but why would I bite? There are great women all over the world who want that. If I'm stuck raising kids with an American partner, I'll pick another man to co-parent with. Raising kids is about work, not sex, and lately my male friends have been more reliable.

I've known a lot of feminists, and I've worked with a lot of feminists. They've been disrespectful friends and unreliable co-workers. It's that simple.

Last edited by NobodyKnows on 21 Mar 2014, 1:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Have you ever considered, that many of the men who are jerks, didn't start off that way? so they self proclamation them selves still nice guys when over time they simply just slowly soured and cant see it or want to admit it to them selves? people are not just automatically one thing or the other, and much has to do with perceptions, not just your own, but that of others of you through their own bias eyes. Nice is an relative term, it is not singular nor set.

Have you ever considered how they ended up that way? Is being nice some sort of absolutist moral obligation, to be debated piecemeal? A lot of "nice" comments from feminists come right on the heels of obvious negging.

I don't claim to be a "nice guy" anymore. I'm nice to girls who deserve it. Yes, I can be a jerk now. No, I'm not sorry.

my issue is how romantic unsuccessful men get treated by feminist,white
knights,far leftist.It has nothing to do with being a jerk.

plenty of entitle jerks have GF,so stop using the jerk excuse.
You know,why these so-called nice guys are getting rejected(looks,
weak social skills,shyness,body odor,too fat)

even if these nice guys are jerks,that not the reason,their being rejected.
if,so,then all men who are jerks,should be single,but that's
not the case is it. Jerks,sexist,a**hole have GF,and are in a relationship

I used to be nice, I was told many times I was just TOO NICE, it left them feeling I was either wanting something, guilty of something, or I was just being to needy and clingy. When the truth of it was, I ENJOYED BEING NICE, its part of what I do for me, it makes me happy to see the loved ones I am with happy, so I was most always bringing home flowers and treats just to brighten their day and being that gentleman, and I admit it I enjoy pampering my mates. I loved seeing those smiles. the thing is I done it so much (most every day) it became meaningless to them, if not even perceived negatively. But to me, isn't that what were supposed to want for our selves and our loved ones? to see them happy and full of life and smiles? I gave up on being that nice any more. it got me no where, what good does it do me to want those things to make my self happy doing, if I never have anyone to do them too or with, or if they just keep taking it the wrong way? it becomes pointless. and I am hurting my self and my relationships by being too nice.

I agree with that. It took me a long time to unlearn, and a long time to learn to focus on making myself happy.

A couple of things:

Know what you're worth. Girls like to be mother-goddesses, but look at human population below:

http://greatneck.k12.ny.us/GNPS/SHS/dep ... owth_L.jpg

Sometime between 6,000 and 4,000 B.C., tools took over as the main enabler of species survival. It's staggering. That's a very good comparison of the importance of the bearer and provider roles.

Also, find other men. It's fun to hang with girls, but good male friends will back you up more solidly when you need it.

http://2013.mgtow.com/comments-from-mar ... yyIGN2aRE4

Learn how to counter girls' leverage-plays and negging.

"Modern marriage is nothing but relationship insurance for women. When they get married, they
can have their kids which further keep you in check."

I don't care what chicks say about that. I've seen it. I lived under it. My dad's whole life was f****d by it. He could never admit how bad it was, and there was nothing that he could've done about it anyway.

"The only chance a man has to be happy with his wife is if he does stand up to her. Over time
the nagging, moods, etc greatly lessen if you make sure those tactics are the one sure way
she never gets her way."

Even my sister, who's pretty nice, tends to lean too hard on my brother-in-law when he's already exausted. You have to learn how and when to say no. Really. Read up on it. That's the only way.

Last edited by NobodyKnows on 21 Mar 2014, 2:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.