The "Black Hole" of woke....
I can't claim to perfect at following all the changing norms. I'm not. I put my foot in my mouth in real life quite a lot; I get confused in live interactions, relying on instinct and habits that don't always work well. I hate finding out I've offended or hurt someone. My own daughter was afraid to share her truth with me for several years (she is LGBTQ), and I hate that I unknowingly created that environment. None of us can do better than our best. My daughter and I have talked it all out, and she understands better now why I said some of the things I did, and has come to realize that patience and understanding has to go both ways, and that one should never be afraid to solicit a conversation, a reality she is working to spread through her own networks. The key remains to actually care, to want to do right by different people. Every interaction has to be a two way street, never putting the onus entirely on the other person.
So, yeah, I want a better world for my daughter. I'm glad norms have changed since my youth. I don't want her to live in a world that can't accept her as she is. So, yes, I'm going to be stubborn advocating for things that should be easy to change, that don't cost the rest of us. Because, in reality, it costs me nothing to address another person the way they want to addressed, while it makes a world of difference to them.
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Mom to an amazing young adult AS son, plus an also amazing non-AS daughter. Most likely part of the "Broader Autism Phenotype" (some traits).
OK, my style doesn't have to be yours, for obvious reasons. But the key to resolving the inevitable conflict is to recognize they have a right to their identity, and that by not using their proper pronouns, you are infringing on that. When different needs collide (yours v theirs) it is going to happen. If you can find a way to recognize that conflict of needs, without trashing theirs, and without apologizing for yours, go for it. I'm not thinking up an easy response right now, but I'm sure one can be created. Anything said with tact and consideration should do.
If they want to cause an inevitable conflict then they're infringing on my rights. They're the ones who expect me and others to behave differently so the onus is on them behave.
Shouldn't the default assumption about how anyone should behave is kindness and consideration? Which means you should always be interested in another person's perspective, how they wish to be called, and how they wish to be treated. That isn't behaving differently, that is behaving the way we've always wanted other humans to behave. The only thing that has changed is preferred terminology. If you insist on pushing that back onto the person potentially hurt by your choice of words, and you know that potential exists, you are being inconsiderate. You're just basically saying you don't have time to give a fig about anyone's perspective but your own, which is something society has long considered socially inappropriate. So who is the one insisting on behaving differently, you or them?
Times of changing norms are always a little rough. It used to be standard business practice to head up letters "dear sir or madam," but enough women said "hey, I don't run a whorehouse!" for the practice to be dropped. No one got ostracized for using it, just reminded how strange it came across. Yeah, I'm old enough for that to have been a thing.
You say people should act with kindness and consideration yet tell me to find ways of avoiding a conflict instigated by the very people you want me to be kind and considerate too?
Seems like trans people are getting a free pass on this thread.
Speaking of assuming bad intentions, when I lived in Montana, I worked at a hotel and another woman worked there and she was from Taiwan. We got along well, she spoke great English but sometimes I had difficulty understanding her if she didn't say words correctly.
Then one day she told our boss I said she didn't speak good English. This was a lie because this never happened. But my boss talked to me about it and I said I never said that. I go home and talk to my mom because I was very upset about it. My mom had me believe it was a misunderstanding and she may have mistranslated what I said. I go back to work and talk to my boss and she was like "it's possible it might have happened."
I move on thinking it was over. But it happens again but this time it was something else regarding her language. I decide to not ever talk to her again. Then she complains about me again weeks later and I think she is lying about me. I forget what her complaints were but I remember she just got mad at me one day for not understanding her direction saying something about her English not being good. It came out of nowhere. I simply couldn't learn some of her words fastce enough because there were certain things she couldn't say in English so I had difficulty understanding her so I would ask and she started to get mad because I was repeating her directions and asking what something is she is saying.
I do repeat directions I'm told and will repeat exact words I hear trying to understand it. But sadly some immigrants will think you're bring xenophobic because of your disability and it is difficult for me to understand different accents and if words are said different, I won't understand it so I will ask and repeat to try and understand so they can help me. But eventually this employee quit because she didn't agree with something at work with our boss. I don't know if it was because of me.
I have an aspie friend with hearing loss so heavy accents are hard for him too. For me it might be auditory processing issues that make it difficult for me. I often ask "what?" When I don't understand.
I am sure there are people who purposly don't understand or repeat their words to mock them because they think if you are going to be in our country, speak English right. But I have pissed some immigrants off for not understanding them but when they actually started writing down words they couldn't say, I read it and understood so that showed I wasn't purposly being obtuse.
People say you get used to accents so it gets easier. Not for me. I still have troubles. I still can't understand a woman at my job despite knowing her for ten years. I still haven't figured her accent out and I think she gave up on me. I also shop at the local convenient store near my work and I still have difficulty understanding the Vietnamese guy sometimes but he kept talking to me and I eventually learned words he is saying in English I ask "what?" a lot less often. It takes patience and lot of people are not patient with me.
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Son: Diagnosed w/anxiety and ADHD. Also academic delayed and ASD lv 1.
Daughter: NT, no diagnoses. Possibly OCD. Is very private about herself.
You make it sound like some unified conspiracy dreamt up in some right wing wet dream. The reality (and I am talking about the real world and not in MAGA fantasyland) is that each case involves an individual person making a decision about what the other person has done. Each case has to be looked at on its own merits and not based on unsubstantiated allegations or claims.
itscomplicated
Blue Jay
Joined: 29 Aug 2022
Age: 1941
Gender: Female
Posts: 83
Location: middle of nowhere
If I'm expected to make an apology for having disabilities then I'll probably end up treating them with contempt.
Being a guy that struggles to learn virtually anything and everything along with finding social interactions awkward and my preference to similarly, I'm just not interested in adopting yet another layer of complexity to interactions.
This is due pretty much entirely to disability. That and pronouns are a viscous enough hot topic online, why would I want to partake in anything relating to it in person?[/quote]
it makes me scared of approaching a nonbinary person if they are going to scolded me for getting pronouns wrong. i hate telling others i have a disability, it's humiliating. it makes interaction too tense
OK, my style doesn't have to be yours, for obvious reasons. But the key to resolving the inevitable conflict is to recognize they have a right to their identity, and that by not using their proper pronouns, you are infringing on that. When different needs collide (yours v theirs) it is going to happen. If you can find a way to recognize that conflict of needs, without trashing theirs, and without apologizing for yours, go for it. I'm not thinking up an easy response right now, but I'm sure one can be created. Anything said with tact and consideration should do.
If they want to cause an inevitable conflict then they're infringing on my rights. They're the ones who expect me and others to behave differently so the onus is on them behave.
Shouldn't the default assumption about how anyone should behave is kindness and consideration? Which means you should always be interested in another person's perspective, how they wish to be called, and how they wish to be treated. That isn't behaving differently, that is behaving the way we've always wanted other humans to behave. The only thing that has changed is preferred terminology. If you insist on pushing that back onto the person potentially hurt by your choice of words, and you know that potential exists, you are being inconsiderate. You're just basically saying you don't have time to give a fig about anyone's perspective but your own, which is something society has long considered socially inappropriate. So who is the one insisting on behaving differently, you or them?
Times of changing norms are always a little rough. It used to be standard business practice to head up letters "dear sir or madam," but enough women said "hey, I don't run a whorehouse!" for the practice to be dropped. No one got ostracized for using it, just reminded how strange it came across. Yeah, I'm old enough for that to have been a thing.
You say people should act with kindness and consideration yet tell me to find ways of avoiding a conflict instigated by the very people you want me to be kind and considerate too?
Seems like trans people are getting a free pass on this thread.
Asking to be recognized as you see yourself is creating a conflict? Or is the person who doesn't want to recognize the other person's truth creating the conflict? In my eyes, it is the later.
Perhaps if you gave some examples of what goes through your mind when you consider this issue I could understand your position better.
In my mind, I see a person who presents relatively androgynous telling you they are a "they" or trans-woman in a dress telling you she is a she. I don't understand why either would naturally create a conflict. I'm not asked to agree with or understand their choices, I'm just asked to refer to them as "they" and "she" respectively. Not a complicated ask in my examples.
If you really can't remember because of your own disability, then don't worry about it. You can't do what you can't do. But the problem is yours, not theirs, IMHO.
_________________
Mom to an amazing young adult AS son, plus an also amazing non-AS daughter. Most likely part of the "Broader Autism Phenotype" (some traits).
Last edited by DW_a_mom on 31 Aug 2022, 3:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
Then one day she told our boss I said she didn't speak good English. This was a lie because this never happened. But my boss talked to me about it and I said I never said that. I go home and talk to my mom because I was very upset about it. My mom had me believe it was a misunderstanding and she may have mistranslated what I said. I go back to work and talk to my boss and she was like "it's possible it might have happened."
I move on thinking it was over. But it happens again but this time it was something else regarding her language. I decide to not ever talk to her again. Then she complains about me again weeks later and I think she is lying about me. I forget what her complaints were but I remember she just got mad at me one day for not understanding her direction saying something about her English not being good. It came out of nowhere. I simply couldn't learn some of her words fastce enough because there were certain things she couldn't say in English so I had difficulty understanding her so I would ask and she started to get mad because I was repeating her directions and asking what something is she is saying.
I do repeat directions I'm told and will repeat exact words I hear trying to understand it. But sadly some immigrants will think you're bring xenophobic because of your disability and it is difficult for me to understand different accents and if words are said different, I won't understand it so I will ask and repeat to try and understand so they can help me. But eventually this employee quit because she didn't agree with something at work with our boss. I don't know if it was because of me.
I have an aspie friend with hearing loss so heavy accents are hard for him too. For me it might be auditory processing issues that make it difficult for me. I often ask "what?" When I don't understand.
I am sure there are people who purposly don't understand or repeat their words to mock them because they think if you are going to be in our country, speak English right. But I have pissed some immigrants off for not understanding them but when they actually started writing down words they couldn't say, I read it and understood so that showed I wasn't purposly being obtuse.
People say you get used to accents so it gets easier. Not for me. I still have troubles. I still can't understand a woman at my job despite knowing her for ten years. I still haven't figured her accent out and I think she gave up on me. I also shop at the local convenient store near my work and I still have difficulty understanding the Vietnamese guy sometimes but he kept talking to me and I eventually learned words he is saying in English I ask "what?" a lot less often. It takes patience and lot of people are not patient with me.
As someone with significant hearing loss and who wears hearing aids, I find it really impossible to predict who I can understand and who I can't. I tend to say "I'm sorry, I have a lot of hearing issues, and I can't understand you." I put it on me because it really is my issue. It's frustrating for everyone, but what can I do? If someone else is with me I can turn to them to repeat. More often than not, though, I pretend I heard them, smile, and move on. Obviously can't do that with work, since content is usually important, but everyone I work with knows to enunciate with me.
I do think there are times someone feels a little disrespected by my failure to hear them, but if they don't say anything to me about it, I can't explain how totally random my inability to comprehend really is. I have a horrid time understanding my own daughter. Her voice is too soft. She has to work at speaking up around me, and its hard for her. Imagine how that makes me feel? Her voice is beautiful. And I can't hear it
_________________
Mom to an amazing young adult AS son, plus an also amazing non-AS daughter. Most likely part of the "Broader Autism Phenotype" (some traits).
OK, my style doesn't have to be yours, for obvious reasons. But the key to resolving the inevitable conflict is to recognize they have a right to their identity, and that by not using their proper pronouns, you are infringing on that. When different needs collide (yours v theirs) it is going to happen. If you can find a way to recognize that conflict of needs, without trashing theirs, and without apologizing for yours, go for it. I'm not thinking up an easy response right now, but I'm sure one can be created. Anything said with tact and consideration should do.
If they want to cause an inevitable conflict then they're infringing on my rights. They're the ones who expect me and others to behave differently so the onus is on them behave.
Shouldn't the default assumption about how anyone should behave is kindness and consideration? Which means you should always be interested in another person's perspective, how they wish to be called, and how they wish to be treated. That isn't behaving differently, that is behaving the way we've always wanted other humans to behave. The only thing that has changed is preferred terminology. If you insist on pushing that back onto the person potentially hurt by your choice of words, and you know that potential exists, you are being inconsiderate. You're just basically saying you don't have time to give a fig about anyone's perspective but your own, which is something society has long considered socially inappropriate. So who is the one insisting on behaving differently, you or them?
Times of changing norms are always a little rough. It used to be standard business practice to head up letters "dear sir or madam," but enough women said "hey, I don't run a whorehouse!" for the practice to be dropped. No one got ostracized for using it, just reminded how strange it came across. Yeah, I'm old enough for that to have been a thing.
You say people should act with kindness and consideration yet tell me to find ways of avoiding a conflict instigated by the very people you want me to be kind and considerate too?
Seems like trans people are getting a free pass on this thread.
Asking to be recognized as you see yourself is creating a conflict? Or is the person who doesn't want to recognize the other person's truth creating the conflict? In my eyes, it is the later.
Perhaps if you gave some examples of what goes through your mind when you consider this issue I could understand your position better.
In my mind, I see a person who presents relatively androgynous telling you they are a "they" or trans-woman in a dress telling you she is a she. I don't understand why either would naturally create a conflict. I'm not asked to agree with or understand their choices, I'm just asked to refer to them as "they" and "she" respectively. Not a complicated ask in my examples.
Yes it is creating conflict of what they want to be recognised isn't immediately obvious on appearance.
The issues I have are many. Firstly, I'm stubborn as I already stated due to autism, my dislike of social interactions at the best of times and my painfully bad memory and slow learning. The onus isn't on me to change.
Secondly I dislike how imposing a lot of the trans community is. They seem to be judge, jury and executioner on the matter and have a habit of making a scene regardless of how innocuous their "slight" is. As Dox said earlier, the vocal ones always seem to dictate how others should behave towards trans people. It leaves an unsavoury taste in the mouth and not something I'm keen on adopting in any capacity regardless.
Sewing the problem is mine and not theirs (probably never theirs), I assume that nobody is invulnerable to causing them a problem? I assume even people with downs syndrome are fair game?
What's amazing is those shouting loudest about trans will probably never meet one in their life
Remember folks, Mcarthy did the same when he invoked reds under the bed. The reality is was communism started dying the same time Josef Stalin was in his deathbed in the early 1950s. But the bogeyman remains with us in 2022.
Last edited by cyberdad on 31 Aug 2022, 4:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
The issues I have are many. Firstly, I'm stubborn as I already stated due to autism, my dislike of social interactions at the best of times and my painfully bad memory and slow learning. The onus isn't on me to change.
Secondly I dislike how imposing a lot of the trans community is. They seem to be judge, jury and executioner on the matter and have a habit of making a scene regardless of how innocuous their "slight" is. As Dox said earlier, the vocal ones always seem to dictate how others should behave towards trans people. It leaves an unsavoury taste in the mouth and not something I'm keen on adopting in any capacity regardless.
Sewing the problem is mine and not theirs (probably never theirs), I assume that nobody is invulnerable to causing them a problem? I assume even people with downs syndrome are fair game?
In my experience, the visual usually supports the chosen pronoun, which makes it easier. I've only seen confusing choices on fictional TV shows. Is your actual experience different, or are you just worried about it?
I have already said that your needs should be balanced in these situations. But you aren't writing posts just about your needs. You are writing posts that say they are wrong to want these things at all. That is the element with which I disagree.
If someone isn't willing to work with your needs, you don't have to work with theirs. But most people who are trans are not confrontational in the way you mention. Squeaky wheels get noticed, but aren't the norm. All most people want is for someone to care and make an effort. If you show them that you accept their right to be recognized for who they are, they should accept your right to act within your own needs and abilities. Kindness and consideration is a two way street.
It is counter-productive to focus on the squeaky extremists; their expectations play out too randomly to be worth worrying about. All you can do is your best.
What bothers me is that you seem to want to throw the whole concept out because (a) a few advocates go too far overboard and (b) its hard for you. We can find ways to work around (b) without offending most of the people you will actually ever encounter in real life, and it isn't fair to base all your opinions on (a) because I truly do not believe that (a) is the norm.
_________________
Mom to an amazing young adult AS son, plus an also amazing non-AS daughter. Most likely part of the "Broader Autism Phenotype" (some traits).
Remember folks, Mcarthy did the same when he invoked reds under the bed. The reality is was communism started dying the same time Josef Stalin was in his deathbed in the early 1950s. But the bogeyman remains with us in 2022.
Those shouting the loudest often are trans themselves.
Some young women don’t mind being called “sweetheart.”
I don’t mind being called “sweetheart.”
But if a person minds being called “sweetheart,” then I won’t call her “sweetheart.”
I believe people should be in an “educating” mode, rather than a constantly confrontational mode, looking for offense when none is intended.
I don’t mind being called “sweetheart.”
But if a person minds being called “sweetheart,” then I won’t call her “sweetheart.”
How do you know if she likes being called sweetheart, ahead of time?
Do you just say it and hope for the best?
Do you ask first, or is there a questionnaire?
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I never give you my number, I only give you my situation.
Beatles
Doberdoofus
Veteran
Joined: 31 Dec 2021
Age: 53
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 1,166
Location: Orbiting Wrong Planet
Not complaining =/= Don't mind.
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I don't follow society's rules. But that doesn't mean there aren't rules I have to follow when the Dark Passenger calls.
Don't be so eager to be offended. The narcissism of small differences leads to the most boring kind of conformity.
I have a sense about these things….and I’m almost always right.
If I’m not….then I’m very apologetic. It’s very rare that I’m wrong. And how do I know? I would know if she furrows her brow or something, or tries to be diplomatic.
I don’t do it all that often. And usually it’s amongst people I’ve known for years.
I’m called “sweetheart” all the time. I don’t get into a conniption fit over it.
Sometimes, people take things way too seriously. The quality of living is going down owing to having to walk on eggshells all the time.
I’m not out here just to offend people. I hate offending people.
Sometimes, people take things way too seriously. The quality of living is going down owing to having to walk on eggshells all the time.
I agree. Apparently Cyber was told that a trans person being misgendered was the equivalent of them being hit by a train. I don't buy that whatsoever.
Anyone who gets genuinely traumatized by that is missing the important life skill of being able to look the other way. If someone is that easily offended then I have little sympathy for them.
I believe that
