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wblastyn
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12 Sep 2008, 10:36 am

Sand wrote:
One of the most widely noted observations of the mathematician Pascal was that it is wiser to declare one's faith in God and the afterlife than deny it because one has everything to gain and nothing to lose but it is based on the most peculiar assumption that one can deceive the all knowing Almighty in the matter of sincerity so it perhaps indicates the basic foolishness of the gambler's instinct that hopes can defeat reality.

What if by putting your faith in Yahweh you make Zeus angry?



chever
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12 Sep 2008, 10:43 am

Sand wrote:
If you can worry over a simple silly question as "What is a green?" it indicates you have a great deal to learn about physiology and perception and also the nature of language.


Why?

Congratulations, you just dismissed a profound standing philosophical problem as 'silly'

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qualia/


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monty
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12 Sep 2008, 10:52 am

chever wrote:

I've never seen a 'green', have you?


Well, as Buckminster Fuller said, from the stand point of physics, there are no things, only events. 'I' am not an object, I seem to be a verb. So you can't speak truthfully about 'a' green... the question is bogus to start with.

I have resonated green.



chever
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12 Sep 2008, 10:54 am

What is this action then


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twoshots
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12 Sep 2008, 10:56 am

wblastyn wrote:
Sand wrote:
One of the most widely noted observations of the mathematician Pascal was that it is wiser to declare one's faith in God and the afterlife than deny it because one has everything to gain and nothing to lose but it is based on the most peculiar assumption that one can deceive the all knowing Almighty in the matter of sincerity so it perhaps indicates the basic foolishness of the gambler's instinct that hopes can defeat reality.

What if by putting your faith in Yahweh you make Zeus angry?

That's probably the most common invalidation of Pascal's Wager. It is a false dichotomy.


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chever
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12 Sep 2008, 11:08 am

Yeah the game matrix for that one would be huge


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Sand
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12 Sep 2008, 11:34 am

Because you say it is profound does not make it profound. It approaches a phenomenon from an angle that assumes its profundity without the understanding to propose the right questions to investigate the phenomenon. Philosophy frequently mistakes the structure of language for the structure of reality and ties itself into stupid knots over non-existent problems.

Stephen Hawking has been regarded by some as an advocate of modern postivism, at least in the physical sciences. In The Universe in a Nutshell (p. 31) he writes:

Any sound scientific theory, whether of time or of any other concept, should in my opinion be based on the most workable philosophy of science: the positivist approach put forward by Friedrich Hayek and Karl Popper and others. According to this way of thinking, a scientific theory is a mathematical model that describes and codifies the observations we make. A good theory will describe a large range of phenomena on the basis of a few simple postulates and will make definite predictions that can be tested… If one takes the positivist position, as I do, one cannot say what time actually is. All one can do is describe what has been found to be a very good mathematical model for time and say what predictions it makes

I sincerely doubt that Hawking's approach to reality is, as you more or less stated no longer accepted as useful.



chever
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12 Sep 2008, 2:12 pm

Sand wrote:
Because you say it is profound does not make it profound. It approaches a phenomenon from an angle that assumes its profundity without the understanding to propose the right questions to investigate the phenomenon. Philosophy frequently mistakes the structure of language for the structure of reality and ties itself into stupid knots over non-existent problems.


What explains consciousness then

Stop fucking around


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Haliphron
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12 Sep 2008, 2:21 pm

slowmutant wrote:
Of course you havev a right to your own opinions and beliefs, but you know there is no "evidence" of God that you would accept. If I showed you some concrete proof of God you'd dismiss it out of hand, and therein lies the problem. Faith is more importsant than evidencd in the final analysis.


NOT True slowmutant!
Concrete proof of God's existance for me is having DIRECT CONTACT with the Almight himself. I have asked for it before, and I am still waiting.............................:?



Sand
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13 Sep 2008, 12:15 am

Human awareness insofar as I experience it consists of the construction of a virtual universe within my mind which is continuously modified by my sense input. Naturally my sense input is selective as it is impossible to contain all the data possible that could come in and it is sure that each of us, depending upon our genetics and our experience, constructs a slightly different internal virtual universe. Nevertheless sufficient agreement amongst the various internal virtual universes permits rational social interaction. Humans tend to assign only to themselves this awareness which they label consciousness but vital elements in this system are necessary for any life form to sustain itself so every living thing has a form of consciousness in order to survive. Even plants which must be structured to be aware of gravity, wind pressures, light and dark, have some sense of their surroundings but it is improbable that they construct the complex sense of self that humans call consciousness. Psychological tests with mirrors indicate that great apes, elephants, dolphins, crows and magpies have a sense of self and it is likely that this "consciousness" is far more widely distributed than most humans will admit.



chever
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13 Sep 2008, 9:51 am

Sand wrote:
Psychological tests with mirrors indicate that great apes, elephants, dolphins, crows and magpies have a sense of self and it is likely that this "consciousness" is far more widely distributed than most humans will admit.


Why would that affect my personal belief in the supernatural? I don't believe that anyone has an individual spirit for this very reason.


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Sand
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13 Sep 2008, 11:42 am

And what gives you confidence in that belief?



chever
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13 Sep 2008, 1:02 pm

Sand wrote:
And what gives you confidence in that belief?


Not much; it's just the only conclusion I could reach out of several bad ones. I recognize that quote mining has been taken to an irritating extreme by several members of this forum but, this time, I can't help myself:

Thomas Huxley wrote:
That anything so remarkable as a state of consciousness comes about as a result of irritating nervous tissue, is just as unaccountable as the appearance of the djinn when Aladdin rubbed his lamp.


I have a very strong feeling science is never going to answer this one and that there may be a supernatural element after all.


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Sand
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13 Sep 2008, 1:08 pm

It's rather depressing that whenever rational analysis bumps up against a problem that might be somewhat puzzling some previously sensible people start screaming GOD or SUPERNATURAL and curl up into fetal positions.



chever
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13 Sep 2008, 1:10 pm

Sand wrote:
It's rather depressing that whenever rational analysis bumps up against a problem that might be somewhat puzzling some previously sensible people start screaming GOD or SUPERNATURAL and curl up into fetal positions.


No.

There is no frame of reference to evaluate consciousness itself; it's outside the domain of science entirely, by definition.


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Sand
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13 Sep 2008, 1:21 pm

Goodness how you do love the inscrutability of things. Consciousness is a system aware of its surroundings and aware of itself as part of its surroundings. Big deal!