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ironpony
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25 Jun 2021, 9:05 pm

Bradleigh wrote:
ironpony wrote:
Oh okay, but how is it not treated the same though? Here's a couple of movie clips with female character gazing at a male character they find attractive, but is it not the same as the male gaze since it's women characters goking at a guy they find hot?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHZSYBkKec4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84en6e1h2CI

Why are people offended at Megan Fox being checked out in Transformers, but no one complains if it's a male character who is the object of the gaze?


Let me get this straight, your examples of the female gaze is Grown Ups, which is an Adam Sandler comedy movie, and literally a James Bond movie.

I think that you are misunderstanding what the "male gaze" is. It is not about female characters gazing at some dude, it is about the assumption of what the point of view camera is, that the camera and direction is male, and gazes on things particular for a male perspective. To be specific of why these two you picked are really iffy, is that the staring at a well built man in the Adam Sandler movie is meant to be a joke in subverting him being attractive. While perhaps some ladies might enjoy the eye candy for a bit, it is meant to be undone after he speaks, so a presumably male audience wouldn't care that the camera just focused on a well build guy.

And James Bond is in general a super male power fantasy character, him being so desirable to women is a part of that, he is not at all being disempowered for that. Which really is kind of a complex subject of whether or how a character might be treated as an object for the male/female gaze. And I will repeat this, there is not actually something wrong with the gaze existing, just that its prevalence of the male is treated more seriously than the female one.

There is again something like the Twilight movies, which I think would be fair to say it has the female gaze. But also that answers are not to treat all genders as a piece of meat to even things out, and I think it is fair to say people were criticising that movie. But it is also that people lose their mind things don't align to to the kind of gaze they want, such as some weird discourse of certain types of gamers saying that female characters are not cute or sexy enough, like Alloy from the Horizon series. Or how these guys acted because of the Captain Marvel movie.


Oh okay, I didn't think that most people who criticized sexualized characters cared about context. I thought they were against under any context. I just picked examples regardless of context therefore.

As for the complaints about Captain Marvel, were those complaints bad?



funeralxempire
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25 Jun 2021, 9:09 pm

ironpony wrote:
Oh okay, I didn't think that most people who criticized sexualized characters cared about context. I thought they were against under any context.


How many of those complaints have you encountered from people who could make a coherent case for why they were problematic? How many of the people able to make a coherent case cared about context?


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ironpony
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25 Jun 2021, 9:10 pm

I don't know, I just hear people criticize it, so that is why I am asking, to get more specifics on the issue, and see what I am missing :).



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25 Jun 2021, 9:15 pm

ironpony wrote:
I don't know, I just hear people criticize it, so that is why I am asking, to get more specifics on the issue, and see what I am missing :).


I'm just saying try to apply some of your own critical judgment because sometimes what seems like a good question doesn't really have much relevancy even if it's still an interesting question.

A lot of the anti-woke hysteria I've noticed on here doesn't really hold up to much critical thinking, that's what makes a few of ASPartofMe's threads really interesting because they expand the scope of the issue enough to realize it's always existed and that the people who make the most fuss about cancel culture are also pretty happy to engage in it as well.

A lot times people seem to tear into an entire bloc over how they feel about an issue when there's actually significant disagreement within that bloc on the details of that issue.


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ironpony
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25 Jun 2021, 10:28 pm

Oh okay, that makes sense. Well as far as my judgment goes I feel that the woke generation is sexist to female characters in fiction, but I am not sure if it is intentional or not. Basically when people say things, like female characters need to be treated with more sensitivity, innocent, and perhaps even prudishness, compared to male characters, it just feels sexist, because they feel that women are sexual innocent creatures, and cannot sexually be portrayed like how male characters can be.

So it just comes off as demeaning to female characters therefore for me. I don't know if it's unintentional and maybe people who believe in the more woke idealogy feel they have people's best interests at heart? Now I don't know if it's just male people in the woke community who have to be sensitive towards the characters or if it's female as well. Maybe the female writers, feel that they have to get on the sensitivity wagon, because of low selt esteem perhaps and feel they need to be treated sensitive compared to male characters because of something like that? I am not sure. I don't know the why, but to me it just comes off as demeaning, if that makes sense.



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25 Jun 2021, 10:41 pm

ironpony wrote:
Oh okay, that makes sense. Well as far as my judgment goes I feel that the woke generation is sexist to female characters in fiction, but I am not sure if it is intentional or not. Basically when people say things, like female characters need to be treated with more sensitivity, innocent, and perhaps even prudishness, compared to male characters, it just feels sexist, because they feel that women are sexual innocent creatures, and cannot sexually be portrayed like how male characters can be.

So it just comes off as demeaning to female characters therefore for me. I don't know if it's unintentional and maybe people who believe in the more woke idealogy feel they have people's best interests at heart? Now I don't know if it's just male people in the woke community who have to be sensitive towards the characters or if it's female as well. Maybe the female writers, feel that they have to get on the sensitivity wagon, because of low selt esteem perhaps and feel they need to be treated sensitive compared to male characters because of something like that? I am not sure. I don't know the why, but to me it just comes off as demeaning, if that makes sense.


I would point out that many of the people raising these criticisms are women and that they're probably in a better position than either you or I do determine what they as women find demeaning to women. They can't speak for all women but they obviously speak for some.

If they speak for enough that it exerts market pressure than it's likely a big enough deal for the market to respond to.


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25 Jun 2021, 10:44 pm

Oh okay, that makes sense. But why are women bothered by it when men are not when it comes to the sexualizing of male characters in comparison? Like when male characters are sexualized, men aren't bothered by it but women are bothered by it more. Are they more sensitive about it, compared to men?



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25 Jun 2021, 10:47 pm

ironpony wrote:
Oh okay, that makes sense. But why are women bothered by it when men are not when it comes to the sexualizing of male characters in comparison? Like when male characters are sexualized, men aren't bothered by it but women are bothered by it more. Are they more sensitive about it, compared to men?


Yes, and that's a result of long standing double standards and traditional social pressures; this whole part of the discussion has kinda put the cart in front of the horse (so to speak).

Being a sexually attractive man never reduces the guy to a piece of fuckmeat. Unfortunately that's not always the perception towards women who are perceived as exceptionally attractive or sexually alluring, and when they retain full agency they're sometimes viewed as distrustful or transgressive or damaged.


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ironpony
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25 Jun 2021, 10:50 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
ironpony wrote:
Oh okay, that makes sense. But why are women bothered by it when men are not when it comes to the sexualizing of male characters in comparison? Like when male characters are sexualized, men aren't bothered by it but women are bothered by it more. Are they more sensitive about it, compared to men?


Yes, and that's a result of long standing double standards and traditional social pressures; this whole part of the discussion has kinda put the cart in front of the horse (so to speak).

Being a sexually attractive man never reduces the guy to a piece of fuckmeat. Unfortunately that's not always the perception towards women who are perceived as exceptionally attractive or sexually alluring, and when they retain full agency they're sometimes viewed as distrustful or transgressive or damaged.


Oh okay, but I thought that women sometimes treat guys as pieces of meat sometimes or some women do. There were a few times when women used me for a one night stand, and then never talked me again, but that's just some personal experience to go by. So I thought it could happen, where the woman views the guy that way.

When you say when the women retain full agency, what do you mean by retaining full agency in this context?



funeralxempire
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25 Jun 2021, 11:00 pm

ironpony wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
ironpony wrote:
Oh okay, that makes sense. But why are women bothered by it when men are not when it comes to the sexualizing of male characters in comparison? Like when male characters are sexualized, men aren't bothered by it but women are bothered by it more. Are they more sensitive about it, compared to men?


Yes, and that's a result of long standing double standards and traditional social pressures; this whole part of the discussion has kinda put the cart in front of the horse (so to speak).

Being a sexually attractive man never reduces the guy to a piece of fuckmeat. Unfortunately that's not always the perception towards women who are perceived as exceptionally attractive or sexually alluring, and when they retain full agency they're sometimes viewed as distrustful or transgressive or damaged.


Oh okay, but I thought that women sometimes treat guys as pieces of meat sometimes or some women do. There were a few times when women used me for a one night stand, and then never talked me again, but that's just some personal experience to go by. So I thought it could happen, where the woman views the guy that way.

When you say when the women retain full agency, what do you mean by retaining full agency in this context?


I'm not saying that women never use men sexually, I'm saying that you're not viewed as a lesser person as a result of it ever.

Basically what I mean by agency is control over who they are. Woman are often forced into being matronly, or as sexual or as pure, desirable potential wives. This typecasting means that if they try to be sexually extroverted they're likely to be pigeonholed as that type of woman, basically forcing an unfair decision that isn't asked of men.


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ironpony
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25 Jun 2021, 11:01 pm

Oh okay, and I totally agree that women should not be pidgeon holed that way. But when you say forcing an unfair decision that isn't asked of them what would that unfair decision be?



Bradleigh
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25 Jun 2021, 11:19 pm

It is just like how if a woman sleeps with a bunch of dudes, she is seen as a slut, but if a dude does it he is not. Usually if he sleeps with a bunch of dudes he is seen as gay, and that probably has its own stereotyping, but a man being with a bunch of women is seen as a winner.

Just generally this can be parts of thought experiments of if you gender flipped characters if it would be seen the same. Would general audiences really have the same reaction to a gender flipped James Bond movie?

If we really want to get into the reeds, we are probably going to have to talk about perceptions of power of who gives who receives, but just that generally men are shown to be in a more powerful position of sexuality. Women are more likely to be judged by how hot they are. This isn't saying the reverse doesn't happen, just that it is much rarer.

Even still, there are some ways to make a sexy character in control of their sexuality.


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ironpony
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25 Jun 2021, 11:24 pm

Oh yes I see what you mean and I do not agree with the double standards at all. But I feel that if writers, give into the social double standards, than female characters will not be able to come into their own. The attitude of writers shouldn't be that a female James Bond will not be accepted by most so why bother. The attitude should be, we need to create a female James Bond and brake the mold.

Because if no one in the woke circles of writing is willing to break molds, and they still want to stay inside the judgment box, then women in fiction will not get ahead in the game therefore, or at least that what it seems like to me. Just because society has bad apples that have their double standards, doesn't mean that the art, should not progress beyond the double standards as a result, or so I feel.

I just don't feel the art should suffer, just because of some social bad apples in real life, who aren't even the audience for that art anyway.



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25 Jun 2021, 11:40 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
[
She couldn't have, but there's other women who could have except they were already typecast as bimbos so they would have likely been rejected even if they did the role as well as Anderson.

And then on top of that there were still people who did that to GA.


Isn't that in an actor's repertoire though? the ability to be flexible enough to play roles requiring a bimbo or a serious role?

PA and her entire family were admitted into MENSA so she is intellectually capable of playing a difficult role like Dana Scully and secondly she had an incredibly difficult life experiencing abuse and rape so her life experience would allow her relate to serious acting roles normally given to Cate Blanchette or Meryl Streep.

Where her credibility would be questioned is her unfortunate typecasting as a bimbo which would make her casting as Dr Dana Scully (not to mention her attractive looks and physical assets) not that believable. In reality she is quite active in social justice issues and is quite broad minded so probably had the capacity if the role was offered to her.



Last edited by cyberdad on 25 Jun 2021, 11:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

funeralxempire
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25 Jun 2021, 11:41 pm

ironpony wrote:
I just don't feel the art should suffer, just because of some social bad apples in real life, who aren't even the audience for that art anyway.


The problem is that sometimes the 'bad apples' both are the intended audience and the man behind the production.
The other problem is that even decent people end up internalizing those norms when they are consistently portrayed as norms.


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25 Jun 2021, 11:44 pm

cyberdad wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
[
She couldn't have, but there's other women who could have except they were already typecast as bimbos so they would have likely been rejected even if they did the role as well as Anderson.

And then on top of that there were still people who did that to GA.


Isn't that in an actor's repertoire though? the ability to be flexible enough to play roles requiring a bimbo or a serious role?

PA and her entire family were admitted into MENSA so she is intellectually capable of playing a difficult role like Dana Scully and secondly she had an incredibly difficult life experiencing abuse and rape so her life experience would allow her relate to serious acting roles normally given to Cate Blanchette or Meryl Streep.

Where her credibility would be questioned is her unfortunate typecasting as a bimbo which would make her casting as Dr Dana Scully (not to mention her attractive looks and physical assets) not that believable. In reality she is quite active in social justice issues and is quite broad minded so probably had the capacity if the role was offered to her.


It is, and ultimately it isn't the particular actress' fault if they're typecast or even if they lean into it because it pays well and they enjoy it.

That said, in that era her and a lot of similar 'bombshell' actresses were pretty strictly typecast even if they had a broader range or even when that persona wasn't their actual personality. That's one of the things I'm describing when I talk about limiting agency.


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