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kraftiekortie
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01 Sep 2022, 5:41 pm

Language is certainly a fluid thing.

"Queer" today certainly does not mean the same as "Queer" 50 years ago.



Nades
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01 Sep 2022, 5:43 pm

Twilightprincess wrote:
Nades wrote:
Twilightprincess wrote:
Having another meaning of the word “they” is a strange thing to get upset about. It’s blowing things WAY out of proportion.

Living languages are fluid. This change won’t (and hasn’t) lead to much confusion. I’ve never found it a problem. As with anything, context should make it abundantly clear which meaning of “they” is being used in a sentence. It’s a non-problem.



I take it you're 500 years old and experienced this degree of fluid change then?


I studied English literature (from Chaucer to the present) and linguistics in college. That obviously doesn’t make me an expert, but it is something I’m interested in.


When it comes to the trans community, people treat language like it's a high pressure gas, not a fluid and then immediately pour scorn on those who don't adopt immediate new meanings of words. Why not start with the word "It" or "Was" of even "A" and "I"

Might as well just mess with everyone's head.



Last edited by Nades on 01 Sep 2022, 5:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Nades
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01 Sep 2022, 5:44 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
Language is certainly a fluid thing.

"Queer" today certainly does not mean the same as "Queer" 50 years ago.


But "Queer" was never a core English word. This is essential to keep in mind...and it still took 50 years to change.



funeralxempire
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01 Sep 2022, 5:53 pm

Nades wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Nades wrote:
IsabellaLinton wrote:
Nades wrote:
You use "they" for a group of people as far as I'm concerned.


... and for a singular person of undetermined gender.

e.g. "If that person ever finishes work, they will go home."

It's more common than you realise to say "they" for an individual.


And more often than not an anonymous person of undetermined gender....... I'm on about calling an person who is already know as "They" which goes against every meaning in the word that I "eventually" learned.


You can learn another meaning, just like one does with many other words in their vocabulary throughout their life.


Who says the meaning needs to change? Since when do "many other words" change meaning within the lifespan of ones life? I'm 32 and I never had to change the meaning of a word. My father also hasn't.

Since when do core words especially like "They" change so quickly?

You see the problem is that every language has a whole bunch of core words. These are a very small number of words, often less than 200 that are use to flesh out 90% of sentences and "They" is included in these core words.

They take hundreds of years to change meaning......not a mere decade. You talk about a word like "They" as if it's a word like "Selfie". They're completely different and it irks a lot of people when they're expected to use such an important word differently and not only that, be judged negatively if they don't.

Lets take a look at your post. "You can learn another meaning, just like one does with many other words in their vocabulary throughout their life."

Can you see the problem in hijacking a core word? You yourself used a derivative of "They" twice in your post yet expect others to accept a new meaning of it? Insisting they do is just flat out imposing on them.

I smell BS in everything you said.


I'm not insisting, one is free to acknowledge a shift has occurred or one can resist. But, people are entitled to comment on other's behaviours, including in this context.

They as a personal pronoun isn't a substantial deviation from the other ways it's already used. It seems fair to assume you disagree but your entire premise seems to be overreaction to a normal process that occurs over time to languages.

Insisting that because you personally haven't altered your vocabulary related to the natural evolution doesn't mean that the language hasn't evolved during your lifetime. It says nothing about anything beyond your personal preferences with how to use language.

If one wishes to retain archaic usages, all the power to them but they'll be the odd one out eventually and others will notice. Others are entitled to notice.


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TwilightPrincess
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01 Sep 2022, 5:54 pm

Nades wrote:
Twilightprincess wrote:
Nades wrote:
Twilightprincess wrote:
Having another meaning of the word “they” is a strange thing to get upset about. It’s blowing things WAY out of proportion.

Living languages are fluid. This change won’t (and hasn’t) lead to much confusion. I’ve never found it a problem. As with anything, context should make it abundantly clear which meaning of “they” is being used in a sentence. It’s a non-problem.



I take it you're 500 years old and experienced this degree of fluid change then?


I studied English literature (from Chaucer to the present) and linguistics in college. That obviously doesn’t make me an expert, but it is something I’m interested in.


When it comes to the trans community, people treat language like it's a high pressure gas, not a fluid and then immediately pour scorn on those who don't adopt immediate new meanings of words. Why not start with the word "It" or "Was" of even "A" and "I"

Might as well just mess with everyone head.


Not everyone uses “they.”

Language is, at its heart, arbitrary. There’s no reason why specific letter sounds should have a specific meaning, unless we’re talking about onomatopoeia although even that varies from location to location.

Language is fluid. Societal changes can rapidly lead to new words and meanings. It’s something I embrace because I find it linguistically interesting and, quite often, necessary. New words and meanings crop up when they are needed.


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funeralxempire
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01 Sep 2022, 5:56 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
Language is certainly a fluid thing.

"Queer" today certainly does not mean the same as "Queer" 50 years ago.


One of the meanings of queer hasn't changed radically, although the value loading it once carried has been reduced.

Queer might have undergone a narrowing of meaning for a while but it appears to be a broader umbrella again, and let's face it, as an insult it was never that narrowly focused.


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If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. —Malcolm X
Just a reminder: under international law, an occupying power has no right of self-defense, and those who are occupied have the right and duty to liberate themselves by any means possible.


Nades
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01 Sep 2022, 5:58 pm

Twilightprincess wrote:
Nades wrote:
Twilightprincess wrote:
Nades wrote:
Twilightprincess wrote:
Having another meaning of the word “they” is a strange thing to get upset about. It’s blowing things WAY out of proportion.

Living languages are fluid. This change won’t (and hasn’t) lead to much confusion. I’ve never found it a problem. As with anything, context should make it abundantly clear which meaning of “they” is being used in a sentence. It’s a non-problem.



I take it you're 500 years old and experienced this degree of fluid change then?


I studied English literature (from Chaucer to the present) and linguistics in college. That obviously doesn’t make me an expert, but it is something I’m interested in.


When it comes to the trans community, people treat language like it's a high pressure gas, not a fluid and then immediately pour scorn on those who don't adopt immediate new meanings of words. Why not start with the word "It" or "Was" of even "A" and "I"

Might as well just mess with everyone head.


Not everyone uses “they.”

Language is, at its heart, arbitrary. There’s no reason why specific letter sounds should have a specific meaning, unless we’re talking about onomatopoeia although even that varies from location to location.

Language is fluid. Societal changes can rapidly lead to new words and meanings. It’s something I embrace because I find it linguistically interesting and, quite often, necessary. New words and meanings crop up when they are needed.


No they don't......not with core words.



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01 Sep 2022, 5:59 pm

Nades wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
Language is certainly a fluid thing.

"Queer" today certainly does not mean the same as "Queer" 50 years ago.


But "Queer" was never a core English word. This is essential to keep in mind...and it still took 50 years to change.


It doesn’t matter if it’s a core word or not. With language, context is crucial.

I have never encountered a problem with the usage of the word “they.” Once again, this (non)issue is being blown WAY out of proportion.


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kraftiekortie
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01 Sep 2022, 6:01 pm

About 100 years ago, it wasn't such an insult. It meant more like "uncanny," at times.

It also meant "weird"; whether it was an insult depended upon context.

Calling someone a "queer duck" was seen as being jocular.

It is certainly less of an insult these days than it was 50 years ago----when it usually meant "gay" (male only) both as a noun and an adjective. Lesbians were never called "queers" in the 1970s.

Nobody, these days, refers to gay men as "queers" unless one is old and ignorant.



Nades
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01 Sep 2022, 6:03 pm

funeralxempire wrote:

I'm not insisting, one is free to acknowledge a shift has occurred or one can resist. But, people are entitled to comment on other's behaviours, including in this context.

They as a personal pronoun isn't a substantial deviation from the other ways it's already used. It seems fair to assume you disagree but your entire premise seems to be overreaction to a normal process that occurs over time to languages.

Insisting that because you personally haven't altered your vocabulary related to the natural evolution doesn't mean that the language hasn't evolved during your lifetime. It says nothing about anything beyond your personal preferences with how to use language.

If one wishes to retain archaic usages, all the power to them but they'll be the odd one out eventually and others will notice. Others are entitled to notice.


Lol. 10 years and it's "archaic". Whatever. I know exactly what you mean by that post. You meant one is not free to acknowledge at all.

I honestly get cult like vibes from that post.



funeralxempire
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01 Sep 2022, 6:04 pm

Twilightprincess wrote:
Language is fluid. Societal changes can rapidly lead to new words and meanings. It’s something I embrace because I find it linguistically interesting and, quite often, necessary. New words and meanings crop up when they are needed.


I wonder how much of this is actually tied to our relationship with language.

You and I are both people might both have a subconscious motive due to appreciating that aspect of language.

If one doesn't notice or doesn't appreciate those natural processes and how they interact with social change it's harder for one to appreciate that it's obligatory and instead view it as a threat to order, even in instances where it's ultimately more of an emotional argument than a rational one.

Just to play devil's advocate to a degree, since it's an issue where people who want to resist don't really have a means to do so without eventually appearing intentionally backwards.


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If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. —Malcolm X
Just a reminder: under international law, an occupying power has no right of self-defense, and those who are occupied have the right and duty to liberate themselves by any means possible.


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01 Sep 2022, 6:04 pm

I wonder if this is why people still clung onto the word ret*d meaning intellectually disabled than a stupid person or dumb policy.

Idiot, moron, imbecile and stupid were all medical terms then. Now they no longer mean what they originally meant. Now ret*d has changed too and people still want to cling onto the old meaning. Now I see SJWs trying to reclaim original meaning of the other word and call them ableist terms and want people to erase them from their vocabulary.


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01 Sep 2022, 6:08 pm

Why are some so attached to preserving a single meaning to the word “they?” I majored in English and am not that attached to specific words (except for antidisestablishmentarianism of course). Generally, I practice non-attachment with my stance towards words.

Using “they” in the singular sense can be helpful when you don’t want to disclose someone’s gender in specific scenarios.


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01 Sep 2022, 6:12 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
Twilightprincess wrote:
Language is fluid. Societal changes can rapidly lead to new words and meanings. It’s something I embrace because I find it linguistically interesting and, quite often, necessary. New words and meanings crop up when they are needed.


I wonder how much of this is actually tied to our relationship with language.

You and I are both people might both have a subconscious motive due to appreciating that aspect of language.

If one doesn't notice or doesn't appreciate those natural processes and how they interact with social change it's harder for one to appreciate that it's obligatory and instead view it as a threat to order, even in instances where it's ultimately more of an emotional argument than a rational one.

Just to play devil's advocate to a degree, since it's an issue where people who want to resist don't really have a means to do so without eventually appearing intentionally backwards.



This is exactly the type of behaviour that explains why the trans community is seen as so controversial. They try to eloquently put into words "my way or the highway" with zero regard for others.



kraftiekortie
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01 Sep 2022, 6:13 pm

"They" is a singular as well as a plural pronoun.

But, until very recently, it had been rarely used in that sense, though it was around the time English became "modern."

If somebody wants me to refer to them as "they," I will do so. But it does take getting used to.

There's nothing wrong with acknowledging the flux of language, though.

It took me a while to pronounce the word "meme" properly......And it also took me a little while to get used to "meh." I didn't know "meh" until I got on this website.



Last edited by kraftiekortie on 01 Sep 2022, 6:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Nades
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01 Sep 2022, 6:14 pm

Twilightprincess wrote:
Why are some so attached to preserving a single meaning to the word “they?” I majored in English and am not that attached to specific words (except for antidisestablishmentarianism of course). Generally, I practice non-attachment with my stance towards words.

Using “they” in the singular sense can be helpful when you don’t want to disclose someone’s gender in specific scenarios.


I also use "they" in a singular sense to refer to such an individual....until I see them in person and this is where the problem is.