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The Woke Generation - Fighting Back

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ironpony
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25 Jun 2021, 11:51 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
ironpony wrote:
I just don't feel the art should suffer, just because of some social bad apples in real life, who aren't even the audience for that art anyway.


The problem is that sometimes the 'bad apples' both are the intended audience and the man behind the production.
The other problem is that even decent people end up internalizing those norms when they are consistently portrayed as norms.


Oh okay. It depends on what kind of movie it is. For example if it's a movie like Schindler's List, I don't want the characters to be sexualized, but if it's James Bond, I do want that and a lot of other Bond fans do to. But when people come in and want to change that, I don't think they have the intended audiences interests in mind, compared to their own more.



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26 Jun 2021, 12:00 am

ironpony wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
ironpony wrote:
I just don't feel the art should suffer, just because of some social bad apples in real life, who aren't even the audience for that art anyway.


The problem is that sometimes the 'bad apples' both are the intended audience and the man behind the production.
The other problem is that even decent people end up internalizing those norms when they are consistently portrayed as norms.


Oh okay. It depends on what kind of movie it is. For example if it's a movie like Schindler's List, I don't want the characters to be sexualized, but if it's James Bond, I do want that and a lot of other Bond fans do to. But when people come in and want to change that, I don't think they have the intended audiences interests in mind, compared to their own more.


Keep in mind an audience is always made of several smaller blocs and sometimes the idea is that the size of those blocs changes over time so they need to appeal more to demos that are larger and more influential now than they might have been. Diehard fans will likely see something no matter what but less dedicated fans might not be interested if it's just another one of those movies but might be persuaded if there's changes that address things that put them off.


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26 Jun 2021, 12:08 am

Oh yeah, that makes. The more I think about it I feel that censoring a female character's sexualization is not the answer, and maybe embracing it is, in order to get ahead. But do people feel that sexualizing female characters will do some sort of harm in real life or something since they seem to treat it quite seriously?



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26 Jun 2021, 12:17 am

ironpony wrote:
Oh yeah, that makes. The more I think about it I feel that censoring a female character's sexualization is not the answer, and maybe embracing it is, in order to get ahead. But do people feel that sexualizing female characters will do some sort of harm in real life or something since they seem to treat it quite seriously?


I'd imagine that as social norms change the attitudes towards those characters might change as well. A society where women are punished or pigeonholed for being overtly sexual is more likely to invite hostility towards certain depictions than one where those behaviours aren't scandalized or treated as disruptive.


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26 Jun 2021, 12:20 am

Oh okay. Is that maybe perhaps why I tend to gravitate more towards European and Asian movies? In those movies, women characters are more sexualized, but maybe they are do not pidgeonhole women to as great of a degree in those cultures, so the sexualization is more comfortable with them?



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26 Jun 2021, 12:31 am

ironpony wrote:
Oh yeah, that makes. The more I think about it I feel that censoring a female character's sexualization is not the answer, and maybe embracing it is, in order to get ahead. But do people feel that sexualizing female characters will do some sort of harm in real life or something since they seem to treat it quite seriously?


This is why we need the bimbo/himbo/thembo revolution. At least the circles I have seen is something like the reclamation of the bimbo, that is to not have someone be looked down on just because they look like they have been. The himbo thing is about being able to have examples masculinity without it being what is called toxic. And then the gender neutral thembo. With some changes sexy doesn't need to be disempowering.


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ironpony
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26 Jun 2021, 12:40 am

Oh okay. When it comes to the Bond movies for example, I liked the sexualized characters, but some of them had bimbo characters in that I did not like so much.



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26 Jun 2021, 12:46 am

A bimbo character is not inherently bad, that is if they are done well. Which is why Elle Woods from Legally Blonde is so great.


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ironpony
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26 Jun 2021, 1:04 am

Yep that's true, that's a great example. I suppose that movie couldn't be made today, because people would be too sensitive or offended by such a character?



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26 Jun 2021, 1:07 am

ironpony wrote:
Yep that's true, that's a great example. I suppose that movie couldn't be made today, because people would be too sensitive or offended by such a character?


Would they, or would it go over fine because it's well-executed? I lean towards the latter.


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26 Jun 2021, 1:09 am

Well that's the question though because you don't see characters like that anymore, and you don't see near as many female characters sexualized anymore, so I don't know if people would accept it if it's well executed, since no one is trying to make a well executed movie of those things anymore it seems.



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26 Jun 2021, 1:20 am

ironpony wrote:
Well that's the question though because you don't see characters like that anymore, and you don't see near as many female characters sexualized anymore, so I don't know if people would accept it if it's well executed, since no one is trying to make a well executed movie of those things anymore it seems.



Was Elle Woods sexualized or just a bimbo?


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26 Jun 2021, 2:17 am

ironpony wrote:
Well that's the question though because you don't see characters like that anymore, and you don't see near as many female characters sexualized anymore, so I don't know if people would accept it if it's well executed, since no one is trying to make a well executed movie of those things anymore it seems.


I think that it ironically people just presuming that "woke"/feminists dislike such bimbo characters that they are not more popular. Off the top of my head, I can think of Harley Quinn, and Madison from Zombieland 2.

I just want to be clear that a modern "bimbo" is not in any way meant to be derogative, but has been started to connected to more progressive ideas like sex positivity, rejection of needing to be masculine to be taken seriously, not pitting women against each other, a focus on what makes individual feel happy, and some rejection of capitalism of what might be considered marketable. I think that you might find more of a complain against the archtype for the people that do the sort of thing of seeing a woman as being nice to look at but not what you would bring back home to the family.


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26 Jun 2021, 3:50 am

funeralxempire wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
[
She couldn't have, but there's other women who could have except they were already typecast as bimbos so they would have likely been rejected even if they did the role as well as Anderson.

And then on top of that there were still people who did that to GA.


Isn't that in an actor's repertoire though? the ability to be flexible enough to play roles requiring a bimbo or a serious role?

PA and her entire family were admitted into MENSA so she is intellectually capable of playing a difficult role like Dana Scully and secondly she had an incredibly difficult life experiencing abuse and rape so her life experience would allow her relate to serious acting roles normally given to Cate Blanchette or Meryl Streep.

Where her credibility would be questioned is her unfortunate typecasting as a bimbo which would make her casting as Dr Dana Scully (not to mention her attractive looks and physical assets) not that believable. In reality she is quite active in social justice issues and is quite broad minded so probably had the capacity if the role was offered to her.


It is, and ultimately it isn't the particular actress' fault if they're typecast or even if they lean into it because it pays well and they enjoy it.

That said, in that era her and a lot of similar 'bombshell' actresses were pretty strictly typecast even if they had a broader range or even when that persona wasn't their actual personality. That's one of the things I'm describing when I talk about limiting agency.


Yeah I'm sure the casting agents and movie producers saw her as a perky blonde with big boobs so it prohibited her from playing serious roles.

Another issue is Pamela's background mean't she wasn't able to afford to attend any prestigious acting school or go through theatre. Nearly all the top actresses are classically trained in theatre performance like Shakespeare. There is a bias then for such graduates/alumni for things like period dramas or heavy roles.



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26 Jun 2021, 7:41 am

funeralxempire wrote:
ironpony wrote:
I don't know, I just hear people criticize it, so that is why I am asking, to get more specifics on the issue, and see what I am missing :).


I'm just saying try to apply some of your own critical judgment because sometimes what seems like a good question doesn't really have much relevancy even if it's still an interesting question.

A lot of the anti-woke hysteria I've noticed on here doesn't really hold up to much critical thinking, that's what makes a few of ASPartofMe's threads really interesting because they expand the scope of the issue enough to realize it's always existed and that the people who make the most fuss about cancel culture are also pretty happy to engage in it as well.

A lot times people seem to tear into an entire bloc over how they feel about an issue when there's actually significant disagreement within that bloc on the details of that issue.

Thank you for the compliment.


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ironpony
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26 Jun 2021, 9:16 am

funeralxempire wrote:
ironpony wrote:
Well that's the question though because you don't see characters like that anymore, and you don't see near as many female characters sexualized anymore, so I don't know if people would accept it if it's well executed, since no one is trying to make a well executed movie of those things anymore it seems.



Was Elle Woods sexualized or just a bimbo?


Oh just a bimbo I thought. Why?