Deaths as Israeli forces storm Gaza aid ship

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jc6chan
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01 Jun 2010, 8:37 am

nara44 wrote:
jc6chan wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Jews are the only people in the world questioned about exercising the right of defense. Why is that?

ruveyn

The way they carry out their "self-defense" is questionable. Sure, 8 years of rocket attacks that killed around 20 people. Did they have to kill 1400 in response? (More than half of the 1400 were civilians).

Also, the whole economic blockade has nothing to do with stopping weapons smuggling. The Egypt-Israel border still has smuggling tunnels and Israel is not only blocking weapons into Gaza but also other supplies as well.


I think u shouldn't analyzes modern democratic state defense affairs through your primitive misconception of an "eye for an eye" ,
As most people at this thread u suffer for much too simplistic mind to really understand what's going on and u enforce symmetry to values and terms that incomparable/
So far the Hamas rockets are crap(they smuggling better one every day) but just try to live in a city where u r exposed to an mediate danger fearing death all the time for 8 years,
Israel didn't seek to revenge it citizen death(what a sickening conception for a so call peaceful man) but to stop to constant shelling of it civilians(i'm sure no one in the left protested that)
To do that it had to go into a very crowded urban area where weapons and combatants hide themselves behind the civilian populace and facilities while doing it best to preserve it soldiers lives
There were some incidents it went to far,those cases were investigated and ppl stood trials (BTW,the US and NATO forces fare much worse than IDF under such conditions)
could u even imagine Hamas punishes it own ppl for hurting civilians unjustifiably ?
Of course not,they target civilians openly and admittedly,
Yet,the hypocrites on this thread and all around the world never doubt Israel is to be blame for all the wrongs in the world,
The sad result is that most people in Israel don't give a sh$$$t about what u think
Most ppl in Israel thinks that Americans and Europeans are amazingly ignorant, shallow folks who care's about nothing but themselves and uses the tragic and painfully situation in the ME as a means to promote their distorted image of themselves as saints of some kind in order to justify their petty,ugly,miserable little lives/
An honest,educated reaction to Israel wrong doings is very much needed (and u can find plenty of it at the Israeli media) that's why it's such a shame that all we get is u lot/

I think you also need to understand whats going on in Gaza and the rest of Palestine. I've noticed that while people like UN secretary Ban Ki Moon and former US President Jimmy Carter has visited Gaza, no pro-Israel person has visited Gaza. Why? Because they don't want to know the devestating situation. I noticed a few pro-Israel people visit sderot and sympathize with those people. Good for them. But it can't be more obvious that they have no interest in analysing for themselves the situation in Gaza. They just stay away from those places.



jc6chan
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01 Jun 2010, 8:39 am

nara44 wrote:
jc6chan wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Jews are the only people in the world questioned about exercising the right of defense. Why is that?

ruveyn

The way they carry out their "self-defense" is questionable. Sure, 8 years of rocket attacks that killed around 20 people. Did they have to kill 1400 in response? (More than half of the 1400 were civilians).

Also, the whole economic blockade has nothing to do with stopping weapons smuggling. The Egypt-Israel border still has smuggling tunnels and Israel is not only blocking weapons into Gaza but also other supplies as well.


I think u shouldn't analyzes modern democratic state defense affairs through your primitive misconception of an "eye for an eye" ,
As most people at this thread u suffer for much too simplistic mind to really understand what's going on and u enforce symmetry to values and terms that incomparable/
So far the Hamas rockets are crap(they smuggling better one every day) but just try to live in a city where u r exposed to an mediate danger fearing death all the time for 8 years,
Israel didn't seek to revenge it citizen death(what a sickening conception for a so call peaceful man) but to stop to constant shelling of it civilians(i'm sure no one in the left protested that)
To do that it had to go into a very crowded urban area where weapons and combatants hide themselves behind the civilian populace and facilities while doing it best to preserve it soldiers lives
There were some incidents it went to far,those cases were investigated and ppl stood trials (BTW,the US and NATO forces fare much worse than IDF under such conditions)
could u even imagine Hamas punishes it own ppl for hurting civilians unjustifiably ?
Of course not,they target civilians openly and admittedly,
Yet,the hypocrites on this thread and all around the world never doubt Israel is to be blame for all the wrongs in the world,
The sad result is that most people in Israel don't give a sh$$$t about what u think
Most ppl in Israel thinks that Americans and Europeans are amazingly ignorant, shallow folks who care's about nothing but themselves and uses the tragic and painfully situation in the ME as a means to promote their distorted image of themselves as saints of some kind in order to justify their petty,ugly,miserable little lives/
An honest,educated reaction to Israel wrong doings is very much needed (and u can find plenty of it at the Israeli media) that's why it's such a shame that all we get is u lot/

I think you also need to understand whats going on in Gaza and the rest of Palestine. I've noticed that while people like UN secretary Ban Ki Moon and former US President Jimmy Carter has visited Gaza, no pro-Israel person has visited Gaza. Why? Because they don't want to know the devestating situation. I noticed a few pro-Israel people visit sderot and sympathize with those people. Good for them. But it can't be more obvious that they have no interest in analysing for themselves the situation in Gaza. They just stay away from those places.



jc6chan
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01 Jun 2010, 8:40 am

nara44 wrote:
jc6chan wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Jews are the only people in the world questioned about exercising the right of defense. Why is that?

ruveyn

The way they carry out their "self-defense" is questionable. Sure, 8 years of rocket attacks that killed around 20 people. Did they have to kill 1400 in response? (More than half of the 1400 were civilians).

Also, the whole economic blockade has nothing to do with stopping weapons smuggling. The Egypt-Israel border still has smuggling tunnels and Israel is not only blocking weapons into Gaza but also other supplies as well.


I think u shouldn't analyzes modern democratic state defense affairs through your primitive misconception of an "eye for an eye" ,
As most people at this thread u suffer for much too simplistic mind to really understand what's going on and u enforce symmetry to values and terms that incomparable/
So far the Hamas rockets are crap(they smuggling better one every day) but just try to live in a city where u r exposed to an mediate danger fearing death all the time for 8 years,
Israel didn't seek to revenge it citizen death(what a sickening conception for a so call peaceful man) but to stop to constant shelling of it civilians(i'm sure no one in the left protested that)
To do that it had to go into a very crowded urban area where weapons and combatants hide themselves behind the civilian populace and facilities while doing it best to preserve it soldiers lives
There were some incidents it went to far,those cases were investigated and ppl stood trials (BTW,the US and NATO forces fare much worse than IDF under such conditions)
could u even imagine Hamas punishes it own ppl for hurting civilians unjustifiably ?
Of course not,they target civilians openly and admittedly,
Yet,the hypocrites on this thread and all around the world never doubt Israel is to be blame for all the wrongs in the world,
The sad result is that most people in Israel don't give a sh$$$t about what u think
Most ppl in Israel thinks that Americans and Europeans are amazingly ignorant, shallow folks who care's about nothing but themselves and uses the tragic and painfully situation in the ME as a means to promote their distorted image of themselves as saints of some kind in order to justify their petty,ugly,miserable little lives/
An honest,educated reaction to Israel wrong doings is very much needed (and u can find plenty of it at the Israeli media) that's why it's such a shame that all we get is u lot/

I think you also need to understand whats going on in Gaza and the rest of Palestine. I've noticed that while people like UN secretary Ban Ki Moon and former US President Jimmy Carter has visited Gaza, no pro-Israel person has visited Gaza. Why? Because they don't want to know the devestating situation. I noticed a few pro-Israel people visit sderot and sympathize with those people. Good for them. But it can't be more obvious that they have no interest in analysing for themselves the situation in Gaza. They just stay away from those places.



jc6chan
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01 Jun 2010, 8:40 am

nara44 wrote:
jc6chan wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Jews are the only people in the world questioned about exercising the right of defense. Why is that?

ruveyn

The way they carry out their "self-defense" is questionable. Sure, 8 years of rocket attacks that killed around 20 people. Did they have to kill 1400 in response? (More than half of the 1400 were civilians).

Also, the whole economic blockade has nothing to do with stopping weapons smuggling. The Egypt-Israel border still has smuggling tunnels and Israel is not only blocking weapons into Gaza but also other supplies as well.


I think u shouldn't analyzes modern democratic state defense affairs through your primitive misconception of an "eye for an eye" ,
As most people at this thread u suffer for much too simplistic mind to really understand what's going on and u enforce symmetry to values and terms that incomparable/
So far the Hamas rockets are crap(they smuggling better one every day) but just try to live in a city where u r exposed to an mediate danger fearing death all the time for 8 years,
Israel didn't seek to revenge it citizen death(what a sickening conception for a so call peaceful man) but to stop to constant shelling of it civilians(i'm sure no one in the left protested that)
To do that it had to go into a very crowded urban area where weapons and combatants hide themselves behind the civilian populace and facilities while doing it best to preserve it soldiers lives
There were some incidents it went to far,those cases were investigated and ppl stood trials (BTW,the US and NATO forces fare much worse than IDF under such conditions)
could u even imagine Hamas punishes it own ppl for hurting civilians unjustifiably ?
Of course not,they target civilians openly and admittedly,
Yet,the hypocrites on this thread and all around the world never doubt Israel is to be blame for all the wrongs in the world,
The sad result is that most people in Israel don't give a sh$$$t about what u think
Most ppl in Israel thinks that Americans and Europeans are amazingly ignorant, shallow folks who care's about nothing but themselves and uses the tragic and painfully situation in the ME as a means to promote their distorted image of themselves as saints of some kind in order to justify their petty,ugly,miserable little lives/
An honest,educated reaction to Israel wrong doings is very much needed (and u can find plenty of it at the Israeli media) that's why it's such a shame that all we get is u lot/

I think you also need to understand whats going on in Gaza and the rest of Palestine. I've noticed that while people like UN secretary Ban Ki Moon and former US President Jimmy Carter has visited Gaza, no pro-Israel person has visited Gaza. Why? Because they don't want to know the devestating situation. I noticed a few pro-Israel people visit sderot and sympathize with those people. Good for them. But it can't be more obvious that they have no interest in analysing for themselves the situation in Gaza. They just stay away from those places.

Also, they are many groups comprised of BOTH Jews and Arabs living INSIDE Israel who protest against Israel's policies and are willing to continuously suffer under Israeli soldier's tear gas attacks yet they continue to protest about the siege and confiscation of land and property to build walls and expand settlements. And so while Israel has the right to self-defense, I find it troubling to sympathize with the country in general since at the same time, they have no respect for Palestinian land and property in the West Bank. They would rather kick a Palestinian family out then to ask some settlers to move elsewhere in Israel because there is no space for expansion.



psychohist
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01 Jun 2010, 9:06 am

John_Browning wrote:
The organizers of the flotilla could have checked with Israel on what humanitarian items they allow through the blockade.

The whole point is that Israel does not allow materials that ought to be allowed, like many foods and construction materials, and what they do allow is inadequate.

Quote:
You know, the only reason Israel is so harsh with the Palestinians is because that is what it takes to stop the terrorist attacks. The Palestinians repay Israel's leniency with rocket attacks and suicide bombings, so Israel has to keep the place like a prison camp.

Since the rocket attacks are ongoing, obviously their current technique is not working.



nara44
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01 Jun 2010, 9:07 am

jc6chan wrote:
I think you also need to understand whats going on in Gaza and the rest of Palestine. I've noticed that while people like UN secretary Ban Ki Moon and former US President Jimmy Carter has visited Gaza, no pro-Israel person has visited Gaza. Why? Because they don't want to know the devestating situation. I noticed a few pro-Israel people visit sderot and sympathize with those people. Good for them. But it can't be more obvious that they have no interest in analysing for themselves the situation in Gaza. They just stay away from those places.


I have friends in Gaza for more than 30 years with whom i keep contact by phone and helped them with money and other stuff as much as i could,
so do many other Israelis who volunteers to escort Gazan children to Israeli hospitals or just stay in touch because we used to work and live together for many years before the Intifada broke out and naturally made friends here and there,
I've been to Gaza many times,
Of course not recently as i would be killed on the spot but i have pretty much good idea on what going on there,
I think they could handle things much better after Israel left the area and tried a more cooperative mood but they choose the all or nothing altitude which as always turned out to be the worst choice
I know for a fact that many Gazan feels like me but Gaza is not Israel and one wrong word at the wrong time could lead to your untimely death,
So until the Hamas would soften is approach i see no way out,
If u know any better i would like to hear it.
BTW
There is much more international attention and resources dedicated to Gaza than Sderot
that's a fact/



nara44
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01 Jun 2010, 9:11 am

psychohist wrote:
Since the rocket attacks are ongoing, obviously their current technique is not working.


It works pretty good,
since the last operation the number of rockets is minimal,one or two a week at the most where before it was a constant barrage around the clock
for the citizen of the south the difference is huge.



nara44
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01 Jun 2010, 9:19 am

jc6chan wrote:
Also, they are many groups comprised of BOTH Jews and Arabs living INSIDE Israel who protest against Israel's policies and are willing to continuously suffer under Israeli soldier's tear gas attacks yet they continue to protest about the siege and confiscation of land and property to build walls and expand settlements. And so while Israel has the right to self-defense, I find it troubling to sympathize with the country in general since at the same time, they have no respect for Palestinian land and property in the West Bank. They would rather kick a Palestinian family out then to ask some settlers to move elsewhere in Israel because there is no space for expansion.


I don't think anyone want u to sympathize with Israel,
What is needed is objective analysis of the situation on a case by case basis,
In case of the grabbing of land etc.. Israel bad
In case of the of the incident discussed in this thread the "peace activists" were to blame and the international community is wrong both in legal and moral terms



b9
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01 Jun 2010, 10:17 am

i was annoyed severely because all i heard all day on the news was stories about it.
it hogged the news and i was annoyed that there was little coverage about anything else.

they should think before they cause such a news hogging situation because people like me need variety in their news.



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01 Jun 2010, 10:35 am

b9 wrote:
i was annoyed severely because all i heard all day on the news was stories about it.
it hogged the news and i was annoyed that there was little coverage about anything else.

they should think before they cause such a news hogging situation because people like me need variety in their news.


Unfortunately for all of us Israel is an obsession to the media
sometimes it's amazes me to see how any minor incident which is no different from other countless like it attracts such a media frenzy
when u open the BBC most likely the first word u would hear is Israel
The world is obsessed with us
indeed ,it's very annoying



jc6chan
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01 Jun 2010, 10:57 am

nara44 wrote:
There is much more international attention and resources dedicated to Gaza than Sderot
that's a fact/

More people die in Gaza. People in Sderot have access to clean drinking water.



jc6chan
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01 Jun 2010, 11:01 am

nara44 wrote:
jc6chan wrote:
Also, they are many groups comprised of BOTH Jews and Arabs living INSIDE Israel who protest against Israel's policies and are willing to continuously suffer under Israeli soldier's tear gas attacks yet they continue to protest about the siege and confiscation of land and property to build walls and expand settlements. And so while Israel has the right to self-defense, I find it troubling to sympathize with the country in general since at the same time, they have no respect for Palestinian land and property in the West Bank. They would rather kick a Palestinian family out then to ask some settlers to move elsewhere in Israel because there is no space for expansion.


I don't think anyone want u to sympathize with Israel,
What is needed is objective analysis of the situation on a case by case basis,
In case of the grabbing of land etc.. Israel bad
In case of the of the incident discussed in this thread the "peace activists" were to blame and the international community is wrong both in legal and moral terms

I am glad you have realized to analyse both good and bad. I have read that Hamas has less corruption within its party then other Palestinian parties and they actually spend a lot of money on social services aside from spending money on rockets. That is why they won the elections in 2006. Other Palestinian parties fail to provide for its citizens, although Hamas may not be doing a good job either because of the siege. I have to say that the international community has been hiding the good side of Hamas.



jc6chan
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01 Jun 2010, 11:03 am

nara44 wrote:
psychohist wrote:
Since the rocket attacks are ongoing, obviously their current technique is not working.


It works pretty good,
since the last operation the number of rockets is minimal,one or two a week at the most where before it was a constant barrage around the clock
for the citizen of the south the difference is huge.

I have to say that it was by Hamas' free will that the rockets had stop falling. They chose to declare a peace deal with Israel. Thats why I strongly believe that in this conflict war is not the answer most of the time.



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01 Jun 2010, 11:13 am

jc6chan wrote:
nara44 wrote:
psychohist wrote:
Since the rocket attacks are ongoing, obviously their current technique is not working.


It works pretty good,
since the last operation the number of rockets is minimal,one or two a week at the most where before it was a constant barrage around the clock
for the citizen of the south the difference is huge.

I have to say that it was by Hamas' free will that the rockets had stop falling. They chose to declare a peace deal with Israel. Thats why I strongly believe that in this conflict war is not the answer most of the time.


Sorry but u r t wrong there
the shelling of the south stopped only after the IDF went into Gaza
It was only when they were faced with loosing any power they have they "chose" to sign a limited cease fire(there is no peace deal between the Hamas and Israel because unlike the PLO they don't recognize Israel right to exist)
War is never the answer but it take both sides to accept this basic and simple truth.



jc6chan
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01 Jun 2010, 12:51 pm

nara44 wrote:
jc6chan wrote:
nara44 wrote:
psychohist wrote:
Since the rocket attacks are ongoing, obviously their current technique is not working.


It works pretty good,
since the last operation the number of rockets is minimal,one or two a week at the most where before it was a constant barrage around the clock
for the citizen of the south the difference is huge.

I have to say that it was by Hamas' free will that the rockets had stop falling. They chose to declare a peace deal with Israel. Thats why I strongly believe that in this conflict war is not the answer most of the time.


Sorry but u r t wrong there
the shelling of the south stopped only after the IDF went into Gaza
It was only when they were faced with loosing any power they have they "chose" to sign a limited cease fire(there is no peace deal between the Hamas and Israel because unlike the PLO they don't recognize Israel right to exist)
War is never the answer but it take both sides to accept this basic and simple truth.

My point was that if Hamas really wanted to, they have the ability to start firing rockets right now.



sefer
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01 Jun 2010, 6:30 pm

Rockets are fired every week, and Israel retaliates each time.