The illegals getting in my country and the dispute about it

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Yeah but it's still no better than calling people from Pakistan Pakis. Sometimes it's inappropriate and disrespectful to abbreviate.

Illegals are not really migrant workers as that is assuming some arrangement of migration between nations, I would place illegals under the class of "stateless persons" as they have left their home nation to live in another nation. Stateless people are not protected by that document and the entire document seems to be targeted at people that go to another nation as part of a legal arrangement which illegals are obviously not. Illegal immigrants from latin america do not fit as refugees or asylum seekers either and they most certainly are not Internally Displaced Persons. Illegals are exactly that, they are illegal. They do not belong here and they are not and should not be protected by our laws(which really they cannot be because our laws would deport them).

Wisguy, I am not going to quote all of that due to its size, but I was simply saying that Vicente Fox was a positive direction because he was not a member of the one party that had been dominating the nation before then. The idea that illegal workers are hard workers that benefit the American economy is a very valid point to make, liberating Mexico is something that we cannot do because it would be frowned upon, but you are right, if we did take over Mexico the entire situation would improve due to investment and things of that nature.

It is not inappropriate and I don't really care if I am disrespectful to people that violate our laws. We shorten convicts to cons all of the time and nobody bats an eye, I do not see the difference between calling illegal immigrants simply illegals. The entire idea of not doing so is simply to promote a viewpoint that is sympathetic to them. Political correctness is a method to control thought, Newspeak in 1984 did the same. In some cases it is good or not bad at the very least because we do want to suppress racism and things of that nature, however, I will not be "politically correct" in this matter because political correctness is simply the use of euphemisms and I will not protect something that I disaprove of with a euphemism. Illegal immigrants do not deserve my respect as they have the title "illegal" due to their position in defying the laws of my nation, Pakistanis are pakistani, they do not deserve disrespect.

WEll then with your principles I'm sure you never eat the cheap fruit and only pay top dollar for fair trade or organic items at your local grocery stores.

Not everyone has the opportunities we have here in the United States, thus to say they should not come here uneducated is false. Denying anyone just because of the circumstances in which they live is very un-American..


Most everyone in America came from ancestry elsewhere, in today’s age I would think there would be more understanding for those who are not from here.

People wanting to protect jobs for themselves and simply jealous of peer competition to leave others starving and or to die in other countries who want to come here. I've never been witness to such selfishness in my life.

For goodness sakes, have some compassion.

If there were such a thing as past and future lives, I'd hope some here making any such assertions to deny another person a right to work here the same conditions they are trying to get out of in the next life.

my neighbors were from pakistan. awesome guys...i miss them.


and i think people from pakistan are called pakistani....if i'm not mistaken.


and i still don't see the big deal. they're illegals. they're here illegally. if they could get here legally, then they'd be legal immigrants and there wouldn't be an issue with them.

If people who by standards of the law, not earth with no borders are not here legally but for honest non-criminal reasons, such as working then its the fault of the government and system in its bureaucracy. Not people seeking to survive, I think by not seeing the genuinity of intents of these people by comparison to the circumstances and bureaucracy, it's the same as hating anyone else that is different.

Policy needs to be innovative, not costly un-necessaries.

Bush is the president of the United States. What does he have to do with your country? By the way, when did you start your own country?

Not liking immigration is not unAmerican as Americans have typically had strong immigration restrictions and nativist movements that did not want immigrants. Given all of the times that we have called for immigration restrictions and stuff and that we have even had political 3rd parties which only had the goal of restricting immigration(know-nothing party) shows that distrusting immigration is American.

Also, sc, what do you know about the industrial revolution? The industrial revolution had bad pay for workers, poor conditions and all of these bad things but do you want to know why? I'll tell you that what it was was the excess of competition for jobs, these kept wages low and allowed for the brutal excesses of the industrial revolution. If there were less workers than factories would have to compete more for labor and acknowledge that labor was not an expendable resource and it would have helped the formation of American unions immensely. If we had just set minimum wage laws then we would have suffered a lot of unemployed immigrants which would hurt us more, the only solution to the problems of labor during that time would really be less people. Trying to make sure that your family does well and that you have a good life may be selfish but it is better than a slow painful death.

Of course, you can read into my post what you want, I am simply playing devil's advocate,. You might totally dislike labor unions and look at the industrial revolution from the perspective that the cheap labor allowed for massive industrialization that allowed for America's strong economic position today. I am just trying to stress that the moral outlook on things while ignoring the economics and social situations can actually be harmful as policies of that nature would not take into account the situations and make things worse for everyone.


Actually, the first part is wrong because we actually want to reduce the labor market for the welfare of the people within the nation. Not allowing people in our country is not the same as hatred, it is just us looking out for our interests. Policy does need to innovate, the question is what we should do to create the most benefit.


Every American has America as THEIR country. America is my country, it is Bush's country, it apparently is Tigerfire's country. We all have an equal right under law to America because we are American citizens.

Is there anything positive to say about new people coming into this country at all?

More people = more tax revenue = increased economy = increase jobs and human recourse demand = more powerful military.

Actually your little thing is messed up. More people = cheaper labor = more competitiveness of industry = economic growth = more tax revenue/ more disposable income = better nation.

Immigrants do not create taxes, they decrease labor costs by increasing the supply of labor. Cheaper labor allows for cheaper goods which allows companies to undercut the prices of their competition better. The beating of competition and increase of revenue allows for the economy to get stronger as these corporations will try to grow and expand and in doing so will create new jobs with higher pay and make the economy better.

The better economy is where the tax money comes from because the increase of immigrants will not increase tax revenue because these immigrants do not create money by their presence and they pick jobs that do not pay enough where the government is likely to tax them anyway, also the increase in tax revenue does not really have the effect that you show on your chart because the economy typically grows from deficit spending or from lower tax rates. A more powerful military may or may not come from an increase economy, it depends on if people really want a stronger military, a better economy could weaken the military because of the abundancy of good jobs which would reduce the amount of people recruited, militaries also compete in the labor market. Really, I don't know the stats for that, as militaries also get stronger from a stronger economy due to technology. Whether or not they get better funding depends on the government.

Honestly though, I do like the fact that you did try to shift from morality to economics. If we look at the logic, facts and ideas we are less likely to do wrong, but if we go with our emotions we are more likely to make bad decisions and there really is good economic reasoning behind immigration. After all, if we can export work freely why can't we import laborers freely? The CATO institute(a libertarian think tank) claims that immigration has many good economic effects which can be read here, I would prefer it if they gave something less dumbed down but it still uses good logic. http://www.freetrade.org/issues/immigration.html

I just presented one view of it.

More taxes from more immagrants but more taxes being paid for them? Is it not true for everyone?

It even seems redicilious to expect cheaper labor from them but they often take the cheaper labor.
I just think the more that new people are closed out the more money you can make yourself with less competition. It might just be a too closed minded approach to internation relations on that level.

Perhaps there are better ideas to come with a more competitive America, perhaps with manufacturing tecgnologies. Or perhaps machine people that replace the workers picking the fruits ect.

The miltiary should as well, no humans needed to fight wars based upon some fibs and overreactions.

Well, immigrants do mean that more tax has to be paid for social services and public goods and the like. More taxes from them may or may not be true based on their income, some people are exempt from income tax or take more benefit from the government than they give.

It is not ridiculous to see that immigrants make labor costs cheaper. That is what immigration does, it increases the supply of labor and drives down the cost of it for that reason. Because most of the illegal immigrants are relatively unskilled, they go into low paying field, whether or not they rise up depends on their nature. There are many immigrants that do well upon entering the US.

Perhaps there are better ways, perhaps there aren't. Perhaps if we focus too much on finding the better way we will fall behind economically and will be surpassed in our goal of a better way for that very reason. In the present though there are only a few choices and we must pick the best choice, focusing on what may or may not happen will not get us very far.

The world today is quite possibly the best it has ever been. We may complain about it until dusk but still, we have it pretty good today.

There should for those who are classified as illegal filling low paying job positions be a program for legitimization, that can be easily obtained. So they can pay taxes while at the same time visiting for however long they visit then go back.

There should be a transportation system, so they do not have to walk accross the border.

Or would that type of system structured to be simplistic be used incorrectly?

I am not sure how much tax money we would get from those people. They pick very low paying jobs and stuff like that. The amount of money that they could give would be low as part of the reason that they can afford housing and stuff like that is simply because a lot of them will live together.

I really don't see the purpose of a transportation system between here and Mexico. If people want into the country then they should pay for their trip. The government should not subsidize a massive migration of immigrants into the country for no reason.

They can't pay, likely they are so poor that is why they walk. If there were jobs such as agriculture where the taxes were built into the transportation costs or the employer paid, then they would just see who wants the jobs at there end.

There are many catch 22's though, that is to say one policy could be a potential danger, where current policies can't keep them out so it exists anyways..


1. Increase what they make.
2. Make it easier for them to get here and go back.
3. Tax them like everyone else.

I'm not mexican, but I'm latin, and I will tell you why I disagree with the idea of the wall and the shooting (apart from human rights and all that little but important stuff). It would be unefficient. Set the law, set the trap. People (specially latins) are very, very creative, and when you and you're family are starving, details like a wall or the possibility of death are unimportant. also, illegal immigrants generally take the jobs nobody wants to take. Fair trade with latin America and more efficient immigration laws (you you can migrate legally easier, paying taxes and all that) will more likely be the solution.