Evolution vs Baraminology: the empirical showdown.

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iamnotaparakeet
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15 Jul 2010, 4:10 pm

Orwell wrote:

OK, so that sounds like a promise to leave the goalpost where it is. I'm still waiting for an answer, though.

"Do you think this test does a good job of testing whether either of those beliefs is false?"

My answer is that I'm not qualified to know, but that I'm trusting your qualifications. I will ask you questions regarding the data and interpretation methods and the assumptions of the interpretation methods. If they are sound, I will not support baraminology anymore. Or, in reiteration of your words, if the cladograms you get do not make sense or are internally inconsistent, then evolution is false. And if evolution is true, then the cladograms will be internally consistent and will make sense.

NobelCynic
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15 Jul 2010, 4:19 pm

Orwell wrote:

I have thus far been unable to obtain an account on the supercomputing cluster, which means Bayesian analysis with MrBayes and similar programs might be difficult.

I am curious about what the problem is. Is it the opinion of the people reviewing your application that the experiment isn't important enough to justify it?

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Gromit
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15 Jul 2010, 5:01 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:

So, in the event that the data doesn't match up with evolutionism, would organisms of closer relatedness be tested so that they have a common ancestor?

No point. It wouldn't solve the problem.

iamnotaparakeet wrote:

Conversely, if the data doesn't match up with baraminology, then would organism of more morphological dissimilarity be tested until the cladograms are inconsistent with common ancestry?

No point. You said yourself:

iamnotaparakeet wrote:

not all birds are related
there are many families of birds which do not have a common genealogy

But if you are interested in a broader comparison anyway, I can find you a paper in Nature. Would you accept that as evidence?

Orwell
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15 Jul 2010, 5:05 pm

NobelCynic wrote:

Orwell wrote:

I have thus far been unable to obtain an account on the supercomputing cluster, which means Bayesian analysis with MrBayes and similar programs might be difficult.

I am curious about what the problem is. Is it the opinion of the people reviewing your application that the experiment isn't important enough to justify it?

]
As it turns out, in order to get an account I must declare an affiliation with one of the groups registered on the cluster. Since I am not in one of those research groups, I am not eligible for an account. (This confused me, actually, since the information I initially had indicated that all students, faculty, and staff were entitled to an account)

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iamnotaparakeet
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15 Jul 2010, 5:06 pm

Gromit wrote:

But if you are interested in a broader comparison anyway, I can find you a paper in Nature. Would you accept that as evidence?

You can post the link, but given that its in an evolutionist refereed journal I already know the conclusion.

iamnotaparakeet
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15 Jul 2010, 5:08 pm

Orwell wrote:

NobelCynic wrote:

Orwell wrote:

I have thus far been unable to obtain an account on the supercomputing cluster, which means Bayesian analysis with MrBayes and similar programs might be difficult.

I am curious about what the problem is. Is it the opinion of the people reviewing your application that the experiment isn't important enough to justify it?

If you still have that information where you had read an indication of your entitlement, then you can use that to demand the usage of the equipment.

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15 Jul 2010, 5:14 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:

Gromit wrote:

But if you are interested in a broader comparison anyway, I can find you a paper in Nature. Would you accept that as evidence?

You can post the link, but given that its in an evolutionist refereed journal I already know the conclusion.

After this project is complete, if there is enough interest I could try a broader comparison between different classes, phyla, and kingdoms. Such an analysis would obviously be in less detail, though.

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Orwell
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15 Jul 2010, 5:23 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:

Orwell wrote:

NobelCynic wrote:

Orwell wrote:

I have thus far been unable to obtain an account on the supercomputing cluster, which means Bayesian analysis with MrBayes and similar programs might be difficult.

I am curious about what the problem is. Is it the opinion of the people reviewing your application that the experiment isn't important enough to justify it?

If you still have that information where you had read an indication of your entitlement, then you can use that to demand the usage of the equipment.

I'll look around, I believe there are public servers where anyone can submit bioinformatics data analysis. I wouldn't worry too much though; in my (albeit limited) experience the MrBayes analysis tends to be the least good of the three methods (maximum likelihood>maximum parsimony>bayesian).

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15 Jul 2010, 10:23 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:

LKL wrote:

I'm not going to argue about horses and asses any more; please get back to talking about birds, 'cause I want to see what you do with the actual data.

Oh certainly, you make one last stab and then say "let's not talk about this anymore, we're off topic"....

No; that is your interpretation. Read your own citation above; I said, "I." YOU extrapolated to 'we.' If you want to have the last word about horses and asses, be my guest; I just won't respond.

iamnotaparakeet
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16 Jul 2010, 12:05 am

LKL wrote:

iamnotaparakeet wrote:

LKL wrote:

I'm not going to argue about horses and asses any more; please get back to talking about birds, 'cause I want to see what you do with the actual data.

Oh certainly, you make one last stab and then say "let's not talk about this anymore, we're off topic"....

No; that is your interpretation. Read your own citation above; I said, "I." YOU extrapolated to 'we.' If you want to have the last word about horses and asses, be my guest; I just won't respond.

Ok, do a favor and don't respond anymore. I'll hold you to this and call you a liar if you break your word.

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16 Jul 2010, 11:23 pm

I didn't say I wouldn't respond at all, only that I wasn't going to respond about the off-topic subject I had interjected - as the quote you cited clearly demonstrates. Further snark from you is still fair game.

iamnotaparakeet
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16 Jul 2010, 11:45 pm

LKL wrote:

If you notice I asked for you not to respond anymore in general, not about horses and asses in specific. However, you are talking about yourself and you are an ass, so therefore you have broken your promise and are a liar. There, now that is actually linguistic sophistry as compared to that for which I usually am accused of being a sophist.

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17 Jul 2010, 1:25 am

Honey, you asking me to do something and me promising to do something are two different things.

iamnotaparakeet
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17 Jul 2010, 11:06 am

Indeed that is so. Don't call me honey though, since that sounds weird.

Gromit
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17 Jul 2010, 4:22 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:

You can post the link, but given that its in an evolutionist refereed journal I already know the conclusion.

What's nice about scientific papers is that there is a methods section, so you can see whether the results are reproducible. So if you think the conclusion must be wrong, you can read the paper and tell us what is wrong.

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17 Jul 2010, 4:50 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:

Indeed that is so. Don't call me honey though, since that sounds weird.

You might want to check her profile.

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