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Colonization of the solar system

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greenblue
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16 Jul 2010, 1:32 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Emulating Earth gravity on another planet would have numerous problems, such as friction of axles requiring a constant supply of energy. In the vacuum of space a space station or ship in rotational motion will practically remain rotating until thrusters are fired to counter the rotation.

well, the issue is how weightlessness affects humans, given that the theme is about colonization and how far is technology to be able to solve this problem.

wikipedia wrote:
Without the effects of gravity, skeletal muscle is no longer required to maintain our posture and the muscle groups used in moving around in a weightless environment are very different to those required in terrestrial locomotion.[citation needed] Consequently some muscles atrophy rapidly. The types of muscle fibre prominent in muscles also change. Slow twitch endurance fibres used to maintain posture are replaced by fast twitch rapidly contracting fibres that are insufficient for any heavy labour. Bone metabolism also changes. Normally bone is laid down in the direction of mechanical stress, however in a microgravity environment there is very little mechanical stress. This results in a loss of bone tissue approximately 1.5% per month especially from the lower vertebrae, hip and femur. Elevated blood calcium levels from the lost bone result in dangerous calcification of soft tissues and potential kidney stone formation. It is still unknown whether bone recovers completely. Loss of bone and muscle make it very difficult for humans to move and even breathe under the weight of Earth's pull upon their return.

Given that, it seems that posits a great problem to regular people, regarding colonization, if the new environment doesn't mach earth's gravity.

It seems that microgravity would not affect a form of agriculture though, according to Nasa, so that doesn't seem to be much of an issue.


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16 Jul 2010, 2:53 pm

greenblue wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Emulating Earth gravity on another planet would have numerous problems, such as friction of axles requiring a constant supply of energy. In the vacuum of space a space station or ship in rotational motion will practically remain rotating until thrusters are fired to counter the rotation.

well, the issue is how weightlessness affects humans, given that the theme is about colonization and how far is technology to be able to solve this problem.

wikipedia wrote:
Without the effects of gravity, skeletal muscle is no longer required to maintain our posture and the muscle groups used in moving around in a weightless environment are very different to those required in terrestrial locomotion.[citation needed] Consequently some muscles atrophy rapidly. The types of muscle fibre prominent in muscles also change. Slow twitch endurance fibres used to maintain posture are replaced by fast twitch rapidly contracting fibres that are insufficient for any heavy labour. Bone metabolism also changes. Normally bone is laid down in the direction of mechanical stress, however in a microgravity environment there is very little mechanical stress. This results in a loss of bone tissue approximately 1.5% per month especially from the lower vertebrae, hip and femur. Elevated blood calcium levels from the lost bone result in dangerous calcification of soft tissues and potential kidney stone formation. It is still unknown whether bone recovers completely. Loss of bone and muscle make it very difficult for humans to move and even breathe under the weight of Earth's pull upon their return.

Given that, it seems that posits a great problem to regular people, regarding colonization, if the new environment doesn't mach earth's gravity.

It seems that microgravity would not affect a form of agriculture though, according to Nasa, so that doesn't seem to be much of an issue.


You don't have to be weightless in space, even without a planet nearby. You could have Earth's gravity duplicated even in interstellar space just by the usage of centrifugal force. This knowledge has been around since Newton and ideas for space stations incorporating centrifugal force have been around at least from the 60's and the idea of a spacecraft utilizing this principle, the Ares, was written about in the novel Red Mars by Kim Stanley Robinson. Also, on a planet or moon, your body still has to fight gravity so some muscle tone would be required still even though it would be less than is on Earth. If necessary, colonists on the moon could be required to rotate with space station crew so as to provide them with Earth's quantity of gravity. I would think you would know about the ideas regarding centrifuges to emulate gravity though, or I may be missing something and misunderstanding you. If so, sorry.



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16 Jul 2010, 2:57 pm

greenblue wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Emulating Earth gravity on another planet would have numerous problems, such as friction of axles requiring a constant supply of energy. In the vacuum of space a space station or ship in rotational motion will practically remain rotating until thrusters are fired to counter the rotation.

well, the issue is how weightlessness affects humans, given that the theme is about colonization and how far is technology to be able to solve this problem.

wikipedia wrote:
Without the effects of gravity, skeletal muscle is no longer required to maintain our posture and the muscle groups used in moving around in a weightless environment are very different to those required in terrestrial locomotion.[citation needed] Consequently some muscles atrophy rapidly. The types of muscle fibre prominent in muscles also change. Slow twitch endurance fibres used to maintain posture are replaced by fast twitch rapidly contracting fibres that are insufficient for any heavy labour. Bone metabolism also changes. Normally bone is laid down in the direction of mechanical stress, however in a microgravity environment there is very little mechanical stress. This results in a loss of bone tissue approximately 1.5% per month especially from the lower vertebrae, hip and femur. Elevated blood calcium levels from the lost bone result in dangerous calcification of soft tissues and potential kidney stone formation. It is still unknown whether bone recovers completely. Loss of bone and muscle make it very difficult for humans to move and even breathe under the weight of Earth's pull upon their return.

Given that, it seems that posits a great problem to regular people, regarding colonization, if the new environment doesn't mach earth's gravity.

It seems that microgravity would not affect a form of agriculture though, according to Nasa, so that doesn't seem to be much of an issue.

Seems to me that it's only a problem if the colonists want to return to Earth. However, if they prefer their lower-G environment (and why not? Especially when the second generation of colonists is born, they'd probably regard Earth as too wet, with a crushing gravity), then it's not that big a problem. Long-term zero-G, of course, can present problems, due to the aforementioned calcification of soft tissues, but my understanding is that it wouldn't take much spin gravity to lessen the danger there. As for prolonged life in one-sixth or one-third gravity, there don't seem to be any actual problems - sure, your bones are brittle and your muscles weak compared to a groundhog, but it's not like you need them to be that strong anyway...


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16 Jul 2010, 3:09 pm

DeaconBlues wrote:
greenblue wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Emulating Earth gravity on another planet would have numerous problems, such as friction of axles requiring a constant supply of energy. In the vacuum of space a space station or ship in rotational motion will practically remain rotating until thrusters are fired to counter the rotation.

well, the issue is how weightlessness affects humans, given that the theme is about colonization and how far is technology to be able to solve this problem.

wikipedia wrote:
Without the effects of gravity, skeletal muscle is no longer required to maintain our posture and the muscle groups used in moving around in a weightless environment are very different to those required in terrestrial locomotion.[citation needed] Consequently some muscles atrophy rapidly. The types of muscle fibre prominent in muscles also change. Slow twitch endurance fibres used to maintain posture are replaced by fast twitch rapidly contracting fibres that are insufficient for any heavy labour. Bone metabolism also changes. Normally bone is laid down in the direction of mechanical stress, however in a microgravity environment there is very little mechanical stress. This results in a loss of bone tissue approximately 1.5% per month especially from the lower vertebrae, hip and femur. Elevated blood calcium levels from the lost bone result in dangerous calcification of soft tissues and potential kidney stone formation. It is still unknown whether bone recovers completely. Loss of bone and muscle make it very difficult for humans to move and even breathe under the weight of Earth's pull upon their return.

Given that, it seems that posits a great problem to regular people, regarding colonization, if the new environment doesn't mach earth's gravity.

It seems that microgravity would not affect a form of agriculture though, according to Nasa, so that doesn't seem to be much of an issue.

Seems to me that it's only a problem if the colonists want to return to Earth. However, if they prefer their lower-G environment (and why not? Especially when the second generation of colonists is born, they'd probably regard Earth as too wet, with a crushing gravity), then it's not that big a problem. Long-term zero-G, of course, can present problems, due to the aforementioned calcification of soft tissues, but my understanding is that it wouldn't take much spin gravity to lessen the danger there. As for prolonged life in one-sixth or one-third gravity, there don't seem to be any actual problems - sure, your bones are brittle and your muscles weak compared to a groundhog, but it's not like you need them to be that strong anyway...


Perhaps people who may later grow up on Mars or other low gravity environments would need to be aboard centrifugal stations of increasing gravity over a period of months if they wished to visit Earth or other planets/moons of similar gravity. Or to reduce the amount of orbital material, have a spacecraft which increases its rate of rotation gradually during the trip through interplanetary space.

Such could also be used to strengthen military troops (if ever necessary), by increasing their gravity they live in to twice that of Earth's gravity gradually. If ever necessary to fight against enemies on a planet with lower gravity, the denizens would want to make sure any combat remains at range since the troopers would be sort of like John Carter... superior in melee combat due to muscle tone developed in a much higher gravity.



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16 Jul 2010, 3:28 pm

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7mwIHCBrjo[/youtube]



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16 Jul 2010, 3:54 pm

DeaconBlues wrote:
Seems to me that it's only a problem if the colonists want to return to Earth.

Yes, the problem seems to be greater when returning to earth.

Quote:
However, if they prefer their lower-G environment (and why not? Especially when the second generation of colonists is born, they'd probably regard Earth as too wet, with a crushing gravity), then it's not that big a problem. Long-term zero-G, of course, can present problems, due to the aforementioned calcification of soft tissues, but my understanding is that it wouldn't take much spin gravity to lessen the danger there. As for prolonged life in one-sixth or one-third gravity, there don't seem to be any actual problems - sure, your bones are brittle and your muscles weak compared to a groundhog, but it's not like you need them to be that strong anyway...

well, not only that the loss of bone tissue seems to still be a problem in that environment, even if you never return to earth, I mean, wether your movements can be made without problems given that and if you crash against an object, what would that implicate to your body in its condition that has been affected because of low gravity, or just a slight change in air pressure, how are the chances of fracture and muscle damage, not to mention, according to wikipedia's article, (which I know may seem not that reliable), the problem of calcification of soft tissues and kidney's stones, if that is the case, then it would be a problem even in that environment.


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Last edited by greenblue on 16 Jul 2010, 4:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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16 Jul 2010, 4:04 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
You don't have to be weightless in space, even without a planet nearby. You could have Earth's gravity duplicated even in interstellar space just by the usage of centrifugal force. This knowledge has been around since Newton and ideas for space stations incorporating centrifugal force have been around at least from the 60's and the idea of a spacecraft utilizing this principle, the Ares, was written about in the novel Red Mars by Kim Stanley Robinson.

Yes, I know about the simulation of gravity in space, but the issue was about the gravity on planets, given that the idea is about colonization of planets, rather than a spaceship.

Quote:
Also, on a planet or moon, your body still has to fight gravity so some muscle tone would be required still even though it would be less than is on Earth. If necessary, colonists on the moon could be required to rotate with space station crew so as to provide them with Earth's quantity of gravity. I would think you would know about the ideas regarding centrifuges to emulate gravity though, or I may be missing something and misunderstanding you. If so, sorry.

Yes, I know about that but the idea I had was that the simulation seems to work fine in space, what I don't know is that that same principle could also work on a planet or satellite that already has its own gravity.


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16 Jul 2010, 4:28 pm

greenblue wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
You don't have to be weightless in space, even without a planet nearby. You could have Earth's gravity duplicated even in interstellar space just by the usage of centrifugal force. This knowledge has been around since Newton and ideas for space stations incorporating centrifugal force have been around at least from the 60's and the idea of a spacecraft utilizing this principle, the Ares, was written about in the novel Red Mars by Kim Stanley Robinson.

Yes, I know about the simulation of gravity in space, but the issue was about the gravity on planets, given that the idea is about colonization of planets, rather than a spaceship.

Quote:
Also, on a planet or moon, your body still has to fight gravity so some muscle tone would be required still even though it would be less than is on Earth. If necessary, colonists on the moon could be required to rotate with space station crew so as to provide them with Earth's quantity of gravity. I would think you would know about the ideas regarding centrifuges to emulate gravity though, or I may be missing something and misunderstanding you. If so, sorry.

Yes, I know about that but the idea I had was that the simulation seems to work fine in space, what I don't know is that that same principle could also work on a planet or satellite that already has its own gravity.


Using centrifugal force on a planet would be wasteful of energy at the least, as people would need to spend most of their daily lives in that gravity if they wanted to retain muscle tone of the degree that Earth's gravity requires, and on a planet the gravity would supply force of friction against the axles requiring a constant supply of energy. If there were actual health problems, such as from the wiki article you mentioned, then crew rotation between the Martian or Lunar surface and that of centrifugal space stations would be necessary every few months or so. Have the space station be at Earth gravity and transfer the crew to the surface and vice versa in alternation so that long term health problems due to low gravity would be countered at least and eliminated at most.



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16 Jul 2010, 4:47 pm

We will use this centrifuge to counterweight the effects of reduced gravity on the human body when we go to the Moon or to Mars. If it works. An one hour spin on it and you be as good as new.

http://www.nasa.gov/vision/space/prepar ... 08316.html

http://www.nasa.gov/centers/johnson/new ... 5-109.html

and a news article about it:

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/23660.php



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16 Jul 2010, 5:28 pm

Wedge wrote:
We will use this centrifuge to counterweight the effects of reduced gravity on the human body when we go to the Moon or to Mars. If it works. An one hour spin on it and you be as good as new.

http://www.nasa.gov/vision/space/prepar ... 08316.html

http://www.nasa.gov/centers/johnson/new ... 5-109.html

and a news article about it:

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/23660.php

well, at least for now, that seems that that applies to trained astronauts, rather than regular people, isn't it?
And well, the idea is of regular people who would like to travel to mars or the moon, either for vacation, immigration or visiting family members, just as travelling to another continent, given colonization and the formation of societies outside earth, which that seems to be the general idea, unless the issue is limited for specific porpouses only such as scientific or military reasons.

And the issue is wether anyone, just about anyone is physically opt for being spinned for a period of time or other similar method, or even if anyone can handle microgravity/weightlessness physical effects such as dizziness, nausea or the like.


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16 Jul 2010, 8:16 pm

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYIo-0qo9FA[/youtube]

Any thoughts about this as a possibility?



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16 Jul 2010, 8:36 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
what would be the best way to colonize the solar system?
hypothetically speaking- if we run into life elsewhere it shouldnt include any of our religious texts from any faith or act like we are thier god giving them a message
if we run into nobody we should scrap all the rules and religious books and start anew


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16 Jul 2010, 9:04 pm

richardbenson wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
what would be the best way to colonize the solar system?
hypothetically speaking- if we run into life elsewhere it shouldnt include any of our religious texts from any faith or act like we are thier god giving them a message
if we run into nobody we should scrap all the rules and religious books and start anew


Since we're speaking hypothetically, let's suppose we run into sentient extraterrestrial life and they also know about God from their own history independent of us.



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16 Jul 2010, 9:09 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
richardbenson wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
what would be the best way to colonize the solar system?
hypothetically speaking- if we run into life elsewhere it shouldnt include any of our religious texts from any faith or act like we are thier god giving them a message
if we run into nobody we should scrap all the rules and religious books and start anew


Since we're speaking hypothetically, let's suppose we run into sentient extraterrestrial life and they also know about God from their own history independent of us.


BTW, this thread is about colonization of the solar system, not making first contact with extraterrestrials.



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16 Jul 2010, 9:14 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
richardbenson wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
what would be the best way to colonize the solar system?
hypothetically speaking- if we run into life elsewhere it shouldnt include any of our religious texts from any faith or act like we are thier god giving them a message
if we run into nobody we should scrap all the rules and religious books and start anew
Since we're speaking hypothetically, let's suppose we run into sentient extraterrestrial life and they also know about God from their own history independent of us.
if we run into them, they are god. im almost certain nobody popped out of a toaster, picked up beach sand and made mankind


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16 Jul 2010, 9:16 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
richardbenson wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
what would be the best way to colonize the solar system?
hypothetically speaking- if we run into life elsewhere it shouldnt include any of our religious texts from any faith or act like we are thier god giving them a message
if we run into nobody we should scrap all the rules and religious books and start anew


Since we're speaking hypothetically, let's suppose we run into sentient extraterrestrial life and they also know about God from their own history independent of us.


BTW, this thread is about colonization of the solar system, not making first contact with extraterrestrials.
and the bolded parts express my thoughts


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