Canadian Muslim Congress - ban the Burka

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It's representative of how the women are treated within the confines of the religion and specifically within the more theocratic states. It's about that in some places, if women aren't wearing the veils, it's an invitation to being raped and killed. It's not some flowery feminist concept, it's men saying "all i will ever see you as is a vessel for sex so you had best cover up or you'll be raped and I'm not responsible for that".

It's a holdover from a sexist culture and it absolutely DOES NOT stop them from seeing the women as objects. It simply fetishizes the clothing. The sexism from the men still exists and no amount of covering stops that, only a culture willing to hold the men accountable for their actions and allow women to freely dress as they want without threat of assault or sexual assault.

"It's their culture" is a BS excuse. Maybe if it's a phenomena that exists within a free culture but in most cases, it's their culture so much as how hostages relate to their captors over time.

What about Muslim women in first-world nations who choose of their own volition to wear burkas and veils? Surely you don't think that's sexist, do you?

It's more of a shadow of the described. It's somewhat of their free will but they're still essentially calling back to practices and traditions that are inherently sexist even if they are not direct victims of it themselves. Many people want the "good old days" without having any sense of comprehension about what it means. Or, in some cases, don't have any wants or needs beyond those "good old days" and so they have no problem with tradition and maybe feel comfortable in it.

Do you feel the same way about Amish women who wear bonnets and dresses that cover their entire bodies? Their clothing is just as sexist as a burka and veil are.

The Amish are a primitive culture that exists as an anomaly in defiance of modern society and societal norms. To be honest, I'm not quite as familiar with what goes on within Amish cultures and communities. Given their primitive nature, I really wouldn't be surprised if they're pretty oppressive about gender roles and what is acceptable to wear...but the men also seem to have a standard as to what they can and can't wear so it's not entirely like the Muslim culture where the men can wear whatever but the women are much more restricted in public.

The Amish are peaceful folk who prefer the peaceful life. They are a law-abiding group of people who do no harm to themselves are others. You call this primitive? It sounds rather advanced and sophisticated to me.

ruveyn

the amish are religious cousins of the hutterites. they are all anabaptists. i have some experience with the hutterites, but please note my experience was on the most conservative colony of the most conservative hutterite sect. also, please note that the youth try to rebel against the expectations and may be seen doing some things that are not technically permitted.

hutterite women wear a starched bonnet, with a headscarf over top at all times. their hair must be tightly braided and worn undr the headscarf. they cannot remove the bonnet, except in their closed bedroom or bathroom. in the heat of sumemr, it causes a great deal of problems.

they wear 2 layers of skirts and a heavy apron with long underwear underneath in all seasons. they have no option as to the dress code, or even the fabrics their clothing is made from. as a colony they make fabric choices once or twice a year, but they are from preselected options. hutterite men must wear a pacifist beard, black pants, a dress shirt, and a hat (hats are only in public). they blend in much better than the women, which is how the colony likes likes to maintain things, because men are allowed more contact with the outside world and must maintain an acceptable public image.

women are not permitted to hold colony jobs in the barns. women cook and clean, and one single woman runs the preschool, but those are the only jobs permitted. women are not allowed to vote in their internal elections, and cannot vote in external elections because.... they cannot drive to town and are not permitted to register to vote. men are free to drive into town and drink or buy cigarettes etc. but women cannot.

sometimes women are permitted off of the colony in groups, or if they have appointments. some of the more progressive colonies permit women to go shopping in malls or department stores, but they have peripheral supervision from men at all times. women are not allowed to have any of their own money, so the women will sell their colony-purchased belongings to lades in town and pretend that the items were broken or discarded.

on the colony they have little technology except that which is required to run the barns. the men hide televisions and computers around the colony, but the women are not allowed to touch or use them. the homes have only internal phone systems, and the women are not permitted to use a phone that dials out of the colony, unless they sneak into a barn at night. some of the progressive colonies in the united states or central canada have cell phones now, but they are not the norm yet.

both men and women believe that women are less intelligent than men, and that women should not think too hard about maths and science. it is considered unseemly for women to engage in any especially rigorous physical activity. both boys and girls leave school by the time they are 15 years old.

i'd like to see hutterite women, and their cousins the amish people, experience the same rights and freedoms as other women in the western world. their extremely conservative and restricting clothing is a symbolic tip of the iceberg as far as i'm concerned.

I personally dont have a problem with the whole body covering or hair covering, but I think the face coverings are ludicrous.

In the Koran, it is stated that women must dress modestly and cover hair. This can be done without resorting to crazy head to food black robes, and facial coverings just erase them as a person.

Many women who are seen wearing the face covering do not wear it by choice, though many wear the black robe by choice.

I dont like the whole big brother thing but these women are either big-brothered by their families, or by the government. Ideally women would be able to have freedom so that people know that what they are wearing is really their choice and they are not just under pressure to wear it.

It normally is...which is why I made the guesses I did. Sorry to delete the rest of your post, it was great overall but I'm responding specifically to this and have nothing to add to the other parts.

The Canadian Secular Alliance is full of more clear minded thinkers, obviously!



Firstly, the Canadian Muslim Congress isn't a "moderate group". It's an ultra-reformist group within Islam, probably as far to the "theological left" as you can go within Islam. Secondly, their still is an aspect of communitarianism and imposing your beliefs that remains in Muslim thought even if you liberalize those beliefs.



I know you're a little ashamed of how much you admire this topic, but please don't try to hide it by saying the opposite of what you think.

Last edited by Master_Pedant on 10 Oct 2010, 10:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.

These women can leave their communities anytime they wish to. Involuntary servitude is illegal in the U.S. and they cannot be kept in the community by force legally. The way out is unblocked and clear.

If the women accept these customs and do not leave they have made their choice.

ruveyn

Unfortunately, Tariq Fatah has moved to the far right in many respects. The CMC also came out against the so-called "Ground Zero mosque" (sic.)