Ultra-right conspiracy lunacy is nothing new.

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AceOfSpades
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21 Jan 2011, 7:11 pm

marshall wrote:
AceOfSpades wrote:
marshall wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
marshall wrote:
codarac wrote:
I don’t know whether this is true or not. What I am fairly certain of is that the vast majority of today’s self-described (American) conservatives would not oppose “civil rights” either in public or in private. So, given that they have already accepted a development so radical, it is no wonder that if and when they talk about radicals secretly subverting their country, they often sound vague and incoherent. That’s not to say liberals are much better. It never ceases to amaze me that liberals (in America, Britain or practically anywhere else in the West) can so often let the continued existence of people called “conservatives” blind them to the fact that their society has been moving in a left-liberal direction for decades.

We are not blind to it. We just don't see it as a "bad" thing. We don't see that legally putting an end to overt racial discrimination amounts to a loss for "whites". It isn't a zero sum game.

I also don't understand how conservatives can tell themselves that the past is better, more free, etc. than the present. It just looks absurd on the face of it. For the vast majority of people living in the 19th century industrial world life was short, brutish, and nasty. Children labored in factories 14 hours a day. The sky was choked with soot. People labored thier entire life and died at an early age. Except for a small minority life sucked more for pretty much all races.


What is it with liberals and spamming the race card? That capitalists are monsters, blah blah blah. While unions may have had their place in the early 19th century, they have become part of the problem today.


Anyways do the liberals here have any explanation for the fact more and more of these "crazy conspiracy theories" are being proven to actually be true. It isn't crazy when it is actually true, guess the right isn't as crazy as you try to paint them to be huh.

Umm. I was addressing Codarac not you.

The truth is that to organizations like the JBS (which is a major influence on Glenn Beck) "restoring the constitution" is a code word for restoring the social order to that of the 19th century. Minimum wages? Unconstitutional! Communist!! ! Child labor laws? Radical!! ! Socialist! Unconstitutional!! Social Security? Unemployment benefits? It's a Marxist conspiracy!! !

You see the pattern? Today it's healthcare legislation. In the 1960s it was civil rights legislation. In the 1940s it was Social Security. The times may change but the arguments never change.
You do know that high minimum wages hurt small businesses right? It has been nothing but a hindrance for my parents. Business owners don't have unlimited funds for operating costs and investment so high minimum wages means less positions available, less people being hired, compensating for the high minimum wage by raising prices on products, and a higher entry point.

Irrelevant. Here in the US there would be no minimum wage if the far right had it's way.
Irrelevant my ass, looks like you can't rebut it so maybe you should consider the possibility that it has more to do with a realistic approach to business than simply wanting to go back a few centuries. The far left would make US into a commie nation if it had it's way, so don't act like far left s**t doesn't stink. Both extremes of the spectrum stink big time, but anyways I'm tired of affirming that and I shouldn't even have to say it.

Plus you've pointed out the 1940's when the JBS originated in 1958 so this thread looks like yet another smear on the entire right side of the spectrum. I'm not surprised, but telling Inuyasha to shut up in response to the questioning of the credibility of your sources was a suicide on your credibility.



marshall
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22 Jan 2011, 1:22 am

AceOfSpades wrote:
marshall wrote:
AceOfSpades wrote:
marshall wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
marshall wrote:
codarac wrote:
I don’t know whether this is true or not. What I am fairly certain of is that the vast majority of today’s self-described (American) conservatives would not oppose “civil rights” either in public or in private. So, given that they have already accepted a development so radical, it is no wonder that if and when they talk about radicals secretly subverting their country, they often sound vague and incoherent. That’s not to say liberals are much better. It never ceases to amaze me that liberals (in America, Britain or practically anywhere else in the West) can so often let the continued existence of people called “conservatives” blind them to the fact that their society has been moving in a left-liberal direction for decades.

We are not blind to it. We just don't see it as a "bad" thing. We don't see that legally putting an end to overt racial discrimination amounts to a loss for "whites". It isn't a zero sum game.

I also don't understand how conservatives can tell themselves that the past is better, more free, etc. than the present. It just looks absurd on the face of it. For the vast majority of people living in the 19th century industrial world life was short, brutish, and nasty. Children labored in factories 14 hours a day. The sky was choked with soot. People labored thier entire life and died at an early age. Except for a small minority life sucked more for pretty much all races.


What is it with liberals and spamming the race card? That capitalists are monsters, blah blah blah. While unions may have had their place in the early 19th century, they have become part of the problem today.


Anyways do the liberals here have any explanation for the fact more and more of these "crazy conspiracy theories" are being proven to actually be true. It isn't crazy when it is actually true, guess the right isn't as crazy as you try to paint them to be huh.

Umm. I was addressing Codarac not you.

The truth is that to organizations like the JBS (which is a major influence on Glenn Beck) "restoring the constitution" is a code word for restoring the social order to that of the 19th century. Minimum wages? Unconstitutional! Communist!! ! Child labor laws? Radical!! ! Socialist! Unconstitutional!! Social Security? Unemployment benefits? It's a Marxist conspiracy!! !

You see the pattern? Today it's healthcare legislation. In the 1960s it was civil rights legislation. In the 1940s it was Social Security. The times may change but the arguments never change.
You do know that high minimum wages hurt small businesses right? It has been nothing but a hindrance for my parents. Business owners don't have unlimited funds for operating costs and investment so high minimum wages means less positions available, less people being hired, compensating for the high minimum wage by raising prices on products, and a higher entry point.

Irrelevant. Here in the US there would be no minimum wage if the far right had it's way.
Irrelevant my ass, looks like you can't rebut it so maybe you should consider the possibility that it has more to do with a realistic approach to business than simply wanting to go back a few centuries. The far left would make US into a commie nation if it had it's way, so don't act like far left sh** doesn't stink. Both extremes of the spectrum stink big time, but anyways I'm tired of affirming that and I shouldn't even have to say it.

Can't rebut what? :roll: You live in Canada. Here in the good ole US of A the Tea Partiers would like to turn the clock back to the 19th century (considering how they demonize Woodrow Wilson) and they have hordes of supporters. The far left that would "turn the US into a commie nation" is minuscule by comparison. They have what? One representative, Bernie Sanders from Vermont?
Quote:
Plus you've pointed out the 1940's when the JBS originated in 1958 so this thread looks like yet another smear on the entire right side of the spectrum.

The right-wing extremist movement that lead to the McCarthyist hysteria in the 50s and the JBS hysteria in the 60s originated in the 1930s and 1940s. Opposition to FDR started it. Your point?

Quote:
I'm not surprised, but telling Inuyasha to shut up in response to the questioning of the credibility of your sources was a suicide on your credibility.

My irritation with Inuyasha's derail tactics somehow puts my credibility into question? What are you smoking? Practically all Inuyasha does is tell people that their "sources aren't credible" because of "liberal bias". He says this and then goes on to copy and paste the most irrelevant off-topic material from the most far-right biased sources possible. If he can point out specific instances of factual inaccuracies in an article I post then I'll take him seriously. However, merely pointing out that an article comes from a source Inuyasha doesn't approve of neither contributes to the discussion nor proves anything. It's weak and it's reached the point where it's beyond tedious.



Inuyasha
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22 Jan 2011, 1:59 pm

marshall wrote:
My irritation with Inuyasha's derail tactics somehow puts my credibility into question? What are you smoking? Practically all Inuyasha does is tell people that their "sources aren't credible" because of "liberal bias". He says this and then goes on to copy and paste the most irrelevant off-topic material from the most far-right biased sources possible. If he can point out specific instances of factual inaccuracies in an article I post then I'll take him seriously. However, merely pointing out that an article comes from a source Inuyasha doesn't approve of neither contributes to the discussion nor proves anything. It's weak and it's reached the point where it's beyond tedious.


There is a difference between derailing and debunking marshall. I was debunking your entire topic.



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22 Jan 2011, 2:35 pm

Orwell wrote:
AceOfSpades wrote:
Orwell wrote:
AceOfSpades wrote:
Teddy Roosevelt supported an end to child labour, was for women's suffrage, and was in favour of trust busting in case you're trying to imply right wingers are reactionaries.

Teddy Roosevelt was also famous for being a Progressive. In fact, his political career helped to define that term, and he briefly was the head of a political party by that name.

Come on people. When you're talking about politicians from a century ago, you have to look at more than their party affiliation to figure out where they actually stood.
I'm aware of that, but it's not like he became progressive and all the sudden felt empathy for the first time in his life. All the stuff he proposed had to be already on his mind, not just sudden whims from a change of heart. I'm just saying that's one proof of the right being exclusively selfish and power hungry being BS. And yeah, props for paying credit where it's due, more people need to do that.

Um... you missed my point entirely. Teddy Roosevelt was not a right-winger. It is anachronistic to attach our modern notions of Republican=Conservative or Democrat=liberal to early 20th century politics. Progressivism is very clearly a left of center ideology. Certainly Beck has demonized Progressives in general (and Teddy Roosevelt in particular) for their leftism.

The Democrats were initially the more conservative/right-wing party. Their precursors (the Democratic-Republicans) opposed the expansions of government authority that the Federalists wanted, and favored states' rights over the more powerful central government desired by the Federalists. The Democratic Party of the early to mid 19th century was not in favor of the rapid industrialization and universal public education that the Whigs promoted (hence conservative- desiring instead to remain an agrarian economy and keep education relatively more privatized). They were conservative in desiring to maintain the systems set up in America's founding, including the institution of slavery, in contrast to the progressives and abolitionists of the early Republican party, who pursued a progressve social agenda (abolition, expansion of suffrage) while expanding the government's role (national banks, higher taxes, increased funding for education). The Republicans of the Progressive Era continued to be more left-leaning than the Democrats, including the push for (and successful passage of) Prohibition. It was only with the formation of the New Deal Coalition under FDR that the Democrats began to adopt left-of-center economic stances, although socially conservative elements (notably the Dixiecrats) were still very influential up through the 1960s. As late as the 1960s and 1970s, there was a strong liberal wing in the Republican Party, spearheaded by Nelson Rockefeller. Only with the "Reagan Revolution" do I think we can really conclusively classify the GOP as part of what we recognize as a modern right-wing movement, and the Democratic Party still has a significant conservative wing in the Blue Dog Democrats.

So. GOP!=Conservative when we are talking about politicians who were active a century ago. Mainstream scholarship recognizes at least one major political realignment since that time (the formation of the New Deal Coalition) while several further shifts, if not complete realignments, from the 1960s through 1980s are a matter of serious debate. It is inappropriate and anachronistic to label Teddy Roosevelt as a right-wing conservative, especially if your only basis for doing so is his party affiliation.
Teddy Roosevelt was socially left of centre and fiscally conservative. Free market and trust busting sounds pretty right wing to me. Trust busting might look like a left wing thing, but the whole idea of capitalism is to promote competition, efficiency, and innovation. Since trust busting is about punishing anti-competitive practices, it is very congruent with the ideal of capitalism.

@ marshall: Can't rebut what? You can't rebut how high minimum wages hurt small businesses yet you want to exclusively demonize the far right. Progressive taxing and high minimum wages put enough of a burden on small businesses, no one needs far left policies putting the small timers out of business. And you do know the states have been leaning towards the left the last for the last few decades right? And sure, I'd take no minimum wage over outsourcing to third world countries cuz of ridiculous taxes and high minimum wages causing less money to be left over for investments or operating costs. If you're against outsourcing as well, then I'd love to see how long a far-left economy would last with taxes and minimum wages going through the roof. Not that you are far left but since you're exclusively demonizing the far right, I provided more arguments of how the s**t of the far left doesn't exactly smell like cinnamon in comparison to the far right. I'd rather have our citizens doing jobs or working for wages we consider ourselves too good to do.

And yeah the far right did start the whole red scare leading to the HUAC, which is ironically a commie policy itself. f**k communism and its police state... oh wait :roll:. You're still talking about the entire right spectrum since this thread is about the far right, yet you're questioning conservatives having an unhealthy obsession with the good ol days. If lets say Aspie rights were better in the 1950's than they are now, you'd obviously think the rights back then were better than they are now, not for the sake of it being in the old days.



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22 Jan 2011, 6:07 pm

AceOfSpades wrote:
Teddy Roosevelt was socially left of centre and fiscally conservative. Free market and trust busting sounds pretty right wing to me. Trust busting might look like a left wing thing, but the whole idea of capitalism is to promote competition, efficiency, and innovation. Since trust busting is about punishing anti-competitive practices, it is very congruent with the ideal of capitalism.

On economic issues, it is still anachronistic to paint T.R as right-wing. Everyone except a tiny minority of radicals was pro-capitalist; the Democrat Woodrow Wilson threw socialists in jail for speaking out. Trust-busting (and the rest of T.R.'s economic/fiscal agenda) was considered a part of the Progressive movement at the time, and it still is today. It is true that it is completely consistent with the ideals of capitalism, but I believe you are still missing the point- modern liberalism/progressivism, while farther left on many issues than T.R., is also consistent with capitalism. No one within the mainstream of America supports policies that seriously undermine capitalism.


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