A question for agnostics.

Page 4 of 10 [ 146 posts ] Go to page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 ... 10 Next

Previous topic | Next topic

Philologos
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Age: 83
Gender: Male
Posts: 6,987

03 Feb 2011, 2:42 pm

skafather84 wrote:

you_are_what_you_is wrote:

I know there is no God.

Prove it.

Are you asking him to prove there is no god - he can't. He can reasonably come up with arguments against believing such a being exists, but 'tain't the same thing.

Are you asking him to prove he knows there is no God - you pretty well have to take his word for it - there is much every human knows that cannot be proven, even if you take the low road and take "prove" as meaning "convince somebody". And yes, we can know something that is not so, nor have we any infallible way to determine absolutely which knowledge is or ain't false.

But perhaps you mean, idiomatically, "Prove your belief in the sense of putting your money where your mouth is, act or speak in a way that is consistent with atheism.

simon_says
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 20 Jan 2011
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,075

03 Feb 2011, 2:51 pm

The bible isnt the autobiography of god. It doesnt list his previous work experience, beliefs about his purpose in the void, etc. It's an instruction manual for believers that only glosses over a few of the big questions but misses many of them, including the biggest one. It doesnt address why something rather than nothing. God is a closed book, he's not shooting the bull on his ideas and early life.

People who think the bible answers everything are just writing a new bible in their heads.

Quote:

Most atheists, in my experience, tend to blatantly assert that the universe either came from nothing and by nothing or that it is eternal (despite most of modern cosmology).

There are other possibilities beyond that. That's kind of a childish strawman.

Vigilans
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 19 Jun 2008
Age: 38
Gender: Male
Posts: 12,181
Location: Montreal

03 Feb 2011, 3:02 pm

It is obvious to me, an Atheist, that the universe was formed from something. The Big Bang is somewhat a misnomer, it is not necessarily an explosion, but rather, the transformation of the universe from a singularity (or something else...) into its current state through 'rapid' inflation. Perhaps it is the nature of the universe to inflate and deflate as some posit. We certainly don't know at this point, but this is certainly better then 'I made the world in six days, and took a break on the last one'. Unless the universe is actually one of those lame growing sponge toys where God/Allah/Oranos/Whatever adds water and gets his amusement from watching it turn into a tyrannosaur or whatnot

_________________
Opportunities multiply as they are seized. -Sun Tzu
Nature creates few men brave, industry and training makes many -Machiavelli
You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do

Philologos
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Age: 83
Gender: Male
Posts: 6,987

03 Feb 2011, 3:02 pm

simon_says wrote:

Quote:

Most atheists, in my experience, tend to blatantly assert that the universe either came from nothing and by nothing or that it is eternal (despite most of modern cosmology).

There are other possibilities beyond that. That's kind of a childish strawman.

No, it is not a CV or an autobiography or even a memoir. But [whatever some say, and there are those who will agree and those who try to use it that way] it is no instruction manual either. You cannot run a coherent life following all and only the instructions there. It is a batch of very diverse books, some barely pamphlets, bundles of letters, like what you might find in one of my less orderly file drawers, with little coherence though with a shared theme - the Hebrews, their beliefs, the divine entity to whom they relate, and a few individual Jews like one Jesus and their doings, associates, and beliefs.

The bible without interpretation no more answers everything - you are quite right - than an instruction manual for my TV written in Japanese with no pictures.

skafather84
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 20 Mar 2006
Age: 41
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,848
Location: New Orleans, LA

03 Feb 2011, 4:06 pm

Philologos wrote:

skafather84 wrote:

you_are_what_you_is wrote:

I know there is no God.

Prove it.

Are you asking him to prove there is no god - he can't. He can reasonably come up with arguments against believing such a being exists, but 'tain't the same thing.

Which is what agnosticism is. I know the gods described by religions don't exist but as for an actual deity or something that could qualify to a reasonable extent as a deity, the jury is out for at least a little while. Agnosticism is just a much more specific labeling instead of atheism...it isn't saying "well, I'm not sure if there's a Yahweh or not", it's an admission that atheism itself requires faith as does theism.

So again, I say "prove it". :lol:

_________________
Wherever they burn books they will also, in the end, burn human beings. ~Heinrich Heine, Almansor, 1823

?I wouldn't recommend sex, drugs or insanity for everyone, but they've always worked for me.? - Hunter S. Thompson

Philologos
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Age: 83
Gender: Male
Posts: 6,987

03 Feb 2011, 4:40 pm

"that atheism itself requires faith as does theism. "

So true. You have to have SOME premises.

AngelRho
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 4 Jan 2008
Age: 48
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,366
Location: The Landmass between N.O. and Mobile

03 Feb 2011, 6:22 pm

skafather84 wrote:

Philologos wrote:

skafather84 wrote:

you_are_what_you_is wrote:

I know there is no God.

Prove it.

Are you asking him to prove there is no god - he can't. He can reasonably come up with arguments against believing such a being exists, but 'tain't the same thing.

Well played! You'll notice I'm staying out of this one. One of the things we're talking about here is what the standard for "knowing" something is, whether something is still "knowledge" if it there is no certainty. Basically, it's saying (if I understand it right) that absolutes aren't required to make knowledge claims.

Of course, the rule still applies--any assertion requires evidence to back it up. The question you're faced with now, skafather, is whether there is any way at all to prove you know something, which is what the assertion here is. "I know there is no God." What can he possibly show to support something he claims to know? I could make a claim, such as "I know how to compose 12-tone music." As evidence, I could submit a 12-tone piece with a supporting analysis.

you_are_what_you_is
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 26 Mar 2010
Age: 35
Gender: Male
Posts: 755
Location: Cornwall, UK

03 Feb 2011, 6:33 pm

skafather84 wrote:

Prove it.

I can't prove there is no God. I don't know need to in order to know there is no God.

.

_________________
"There is no idea, however ancient and absurd, that is not capable of improving our knowledge."

you_are_what_you_is
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 26 Mar 2010
Age: 35
Gender: Male
Posts: 755
Location: Cornwall, UK

03 Feb 2011, 6:35 pm

ikorack wrote:

He is equating knowledge with strong belief a mistake but it does allow him to not bother with silly things like proof.

Following philosophical tradition, and something like the conventional everyday usage of the word, I'm equating knowledge with justified true belief. (I'm conceding something there, because I'm more attracted to epistemic minimalism - I'd say that knowledge only requires true belief, rather than justified true belief.)

.

_________________
"There is no idea, however ancient and absurd, that is not capable of improving our knowledge."

you_are_what_you_is
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 26 Mar 2010
Age: 35
Gender: Male
Posts: 755
Location: Cornwall, UK

03 Feb 2011, 6:36 pm

skafather84 wrote:

If he wants to attack agnostics, I'd like to see him do something more than misrepresent the agnostic viewpoint as if he's some kind of moron who doesn't really understand what agnostic means.

Well, what do you think it means?

.

_________________
"There is no idea, however ancient and absurd, that is not capable of improving our knowledge."

you_are_what_you_is
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 26 Mar 2010
Age: 35
Gender: Male
Posts: 755
Location: Cornwall, UK

03 Feb 2011, 6:47 pm

skafather84 wrote:

I know the gods described by religions don't exist

You're not agnostic about those Gods, in that case.

Quote:

but as for an actual deity or something that could qualify to a reasonable extent as a deity, the jury is out for at least a little while.

I know those deities don't exist. I don't know without a doubt that those deities don't exist. Knowing without a doubt isn't the same as simply knowing, though. That's why, in the OP, I asked for any agnostics here to explain what conditions they think a belief must meet for it to count as knowledge.

When I say that I know there is no God, I'm not making a very strong claim, because to me knowledge is just true belief. We can follow philosophical tradition and strengthen that to justified true belief, and I'd still say that I know there is no God. Most philosophers these days have even stricter conditions, but even on most of those, I'm still not agnostic. Only when you get to point where I'd have to say stuff like 'I don't know if there are five elephants in my garden', 'I don't know if I live in the UK', 'I don't know if there's an oven in the kitchen', etc, would you find me saying 'I don't know if there is a God.'

.

_________________
"There is no idea, however ancient and absurd, that is not capable of improving our knowledge."

ikorack
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 15 Mar 2009
Age: 34
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,870

03 Feb 2011, 7:01 pm

you_are_what_you_is wrote:

ikorack wrote:

He is equating knowledge with strong belief a mistake but it does allow him to not bother with silly things like proof.

True belief? Define what you consider qualifies something as true belief

ryan93
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 15 Apr 2009
Age: 33
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,315
Location: Galway, Ireland

03 Feb 2011, 7:01 pm

Quote:

I don't know without a doubt that those deities don't exist

Then you don't know, you think, or you assume, or you are certain beyond doubt, but you don't know. False knowledge claims are the reason atheists even have to argue with theists.

_________________
The scientist only imposes two things, namely truth and sincerity, imposes them upon himself and upon other scientists - Erwin Schrodinger

Member of the WP Strident Atheists

Sand
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 15 Sep 2007
Age: 100
Gender: Male
Posts: 11,484
Location: Finland

03 Feb 2011, 7:09 pm

you_are_what_you_is wrote:

skafather84 wrote:

I know the gods described by religions don't exist

You're not agnostic about those Gods, in that case.

Quote:

but as for an actual deity or something that could qualify to a reasonable extent as a deity, the jury is out for at least a little while.

There is here, of course, total confusion as to the meaning of "to know". If it means to be absolutely sure without doubt then that is the definition seemingly rejected. If it means to be sure as an operating principle then that pretty radically changes the general understanding of its meaning. We all live in a world that presents open possibilities and we do the best we can in approximating what those possibilities may be. But it is only in playing with abstractions such as in mathematics that absolute knowledge is possible. Agnosticism merely acknowledges that there is no absolute knowledge in the real world.

you_are_what_you_is
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 26 Mar 2010
Age: 35
Gender: Male
Posts: 755
Location: Cornwall, UK

03 Feb 2011, 8:11 pm

ikorack wrote:

True belief? Define what you consider qualifies something as true belief

Not sure what you're having trouble with there. A true belief is what it says on the tin - a belief that is true.

.

_________________
"There is no idea, however ancient and absurd, that is not capable of improving our knowledge."

you_are_what_you_is
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 26 Mar 2010
Age: 35
Gender: Male
Posts: 755
Location: Cornwall, UK

03 Feb 2011, 8:13 pm

ryan93 wrote:

Then you don't know, you think, or you assume, or you are certain beyond doubt, but you don't know. False knowledge claims are the reason atheists even have to argue with theists.

No, I do know. Knowledge doesn't require certainty, at least on the conventional use of the word.

.

_________________
"There is no idea, however ancient and absurd, that is not capable of improving our knowledge."

Page 4 of 10 [ 146 posts ] Go to page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 ... 10 Next

Jump to:

A question for agnostics. Post Reply New Topic

A question for agnostics.