Are we Heading towards a Constitutional Crisis
Inuyasha wrote:
Uh here is where you two are wrong:
1. The Iranian Government was partially trying to spite Carter.
I would argue that the Iranian Government didn't want an actual military confrontation, and believe me Reagan would have acted militarily to get those hostages out.
1. The Iranian Government was partially trying to spite Carter.
I would argue that the Iranian Government didn't want an actual military confrontation, and believe me Reagan would have acted militarily to get those hostages out.
By militarily, do you mean "sell missiles to them"? Because that's the only thing he did with Iran.
Well, that and put Saddam Hussein in power to fight a proxy war with Iran. No direct engagement, though.
So from the actual history, you're full of it and have no clue what "Reagan" (he had no impact on policy when you actually get to reading about his terms as president) would have and did do.
_________________
Wherever they burn books they will also, in the end, burn human beings. ~Heinrich Heine, Almansor, 1823
?I wouldn't recommend sex, drugs or insanity for everyone, but they've always worked for me.? - Hunter S. Thompson
skafather84 wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
Uh here is where you two are wrong:
1. The Iranian Government was partially trying to spite Carter.
I would argue that the Iranian Government didn't want an actual military confrontation, and believe me Reagan would have acted militarily to get those hostages out.
1. The Iranian Government was partially trying to spite Carter.
I would argue that the Iranian Government didn't want an actual military confrontation, and believe me Reagan would have acted militarily to get those hostages out.
By militarily, do you mean "sell missiles to them"? Because that's the only thing he did with Iran.
Well, that and put Saddam Hussein in power to fight a proxy war with Iran. No direct engagement, though.
So from the actual history, you're full of it and have no clue what "Reagan" (he had no impact on policy when you actually get to reading about his terms as president) would have and did do.
Was President Reagan for sure involved though? You can make a charge about certain senior officials, but there was never anything that directly connected Reagan to this as far as we know.
Inuyasha wrote:
skafather84 wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
Uh here is where you two are wrong:
1. The Iranian Government was partially trying to spite Carter.
I would argue that the Iranian Government didn't want an actual military confrontation, and believe me Reagan would have acted militarily to get those hostages out.
1. The Iranian Government was partially trying to spite Carter.
I would argue that the Iranian Government didn't want an actual military confrontation, and believe me Reagan would have acted militarily to get those hostages out.
By militarily, do you mean "sell missiles to them"? Because that's the only thing he did with Iran.
Well, that and put Saddam Hussein in power to fight a proxy war with Iran. No direct engagement, though.
So from the actual history, you're full of it and have no clue what "Reagan" (he had no impact on policy when you actually get to reading about his terms as president) would have and did do.
Was President Reagan for sure involved though? You can make a charge about certain senior officials, but there was never anything that directly connected Reagan to this as far as we know.
Like I said in my post, I honestly think Reagan was nothing more than a figurehead for a conglomerate that made up most of his "staff" in key positions. Reagan was a mascot and he continues to be one today.
However, what his conglomeration did was all of what was described above with regards to their dealings with Iran.
_________________
Wherever they burn books they will also, in the end, burn human beings. ~Heinrich Heine, Almansor, 1823
?I wouldn't recommend sex, drugs or insanity for everyone, but they've always worked for me.? - Hunter S. Thompson
skafather84 wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
skafather84 wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
Uh here is where you two are wrong:
1. The Iranian Government was partially trying to spite Carter.
I would argue that the Iranian Government didn't want an actual military confrontation, and believe me Reagan would have acted militarily to get those hostages out.
1. The Iranian Government was partially trying to spite Carter.
I would argue that the Iranian Government didn't want an actual military confrontation, and believe me Reagan would have acted militarily to get those hostages out.
By militarily, do you mean "sell missiles to them"? Because that's the only thing he did with Iran.
Well, that and put Saddam Hussein in power to fight a proxy war with Iran. No direct engagement, though.
So from the actual history, you're full of it and have no clue what "Reagan" (he had no impact on policy when you actually get to reading about his terms as president) would have and did do.
Was President Reagan for sure involved though? You can make a charge about certain senior officials, but there was never anything that directly connected Reagan to this as far as we know.
Like I said in my post, I honestly think Reagan was nothing more than a figurehead for a conglomerate that made up most of his "staff" in key positions. Reagan was a mascot and he continues to be one today.
However, what his conglomeration did was all of what was described above with regards to their dealings with Iran.
Reagan was more than a mascot, this can happen in any Presidency, someone goes and does something behind the President's back so that if/when there is a fallout the President has plausible deniability.
Inuyasha wrote:
I would argue it is because Obamacare is his pet project while not defending the Defense of Marriage Act caters to a political constituency.
I think that you are probably right. But he was elected president, and he has a mandate to make those decisions. Just because a decision is politically motivated does not make it either wrongful or wrong.
Quote:
So how is defying two court orders concerning the drilling ban following the rule of law? How is trying to force states to follow a law that was declared unconstitutional and trying to stall on Obamacare ending up in the Supreme Court following the rule of law.
I think you need to distinguish between defiance of a court order, and seeking a court's own order to withhold application of its judgement pending appeal. There is absolutely nothing contrary to the rule of law to seek an order from a court (as the administration has done both with respect to the drilling ban litigation and the health care legislation litigation).
Further, there is absolutely nothing wrong with the government taking a court's order under advisement, and taking new action in the expectation that its new action will pass scrutiny (as the administration is likely to do on the drilling ban).
visagrunt wrote:
Sure ordering the dismissal of a voter intimidation case after the conviction following the rule of law.
It remains the prerogative of the state to discontinue prosecution at any point--but no administration can ever "order the dismissal" of a matter, and no judge would ever agree to receive such an order. It can only order its own prosecutors to back down.
Now, you are perfectly correct to hold the administration accountable for this decision--but you cannot pretend that it is a violation of the principles of rule of law.
_________________
--James
visagrunt wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
I would argue it is because Obamacare is his pet project while not defending the Defense of Marriage Act caters to a political constituency.
I think that you are probably right. But he was elected president, and he has a mandate to make those decisions. Just because a decision is politically motivated does not make it either wrongful or wrong.
Actually it does due to his oath of office.
visagrunt wrote:
Quote:
So how is defying two court orders concerning the drilling ban following the rule of law? How is trying to force states to follow a law that was declared unconstitutional and trying to stall on Obamacare ending up in the Supreme Court following the rule of law.
I think you need to distinguish between defiance of a court order, and seeking a court's own order to withhold application of its judgement pending appeal. There is absolutely nothing contrary to the rule of law to seek an order from a court (as the administration has done both with respect to the drilling ban litigation and the health care legislation litigation).
The White House was found in contempt of court.
visagrunt wrote:
Further, there is absolutely nothing wrong with the government taking a court's order under advisement, and taking new action in the expectation that its new action will pass scrutiny (as the administration is likely to do on the drilling ban).
Maybe, but it reached the point where he was breaking the law.
visagrunt wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
Sure ordering the dismissal of a voter intimidation case after the conviction following the rule of law.
It remains the prerogative of the state to discontinue prosecution at any point--but no administration can ever "order the dismissal" of a matter, and no judge would ever agree to receive such an order. It can only order its own prosecutors to back down.
Now, you are perfectly correct to hold the administration accountable for this decision--but you cannot pretend that it is a violation of the principles of rule of law.
Uh in a situation like that, it is considered an abuse of power, you wouldn't be singing that tune if a President Palin let a bunch of white guys with clubs threaten black people at the polls walk away scot free.
Inuyasha wrote:
Was President Reagan for sure involved though? You can make a charge about certain senior officials, but there was never anything that directly connected Reagan to this as far as we know.
The technical term is plausible deniability. Don't leave home without it.
ruveyn
ikorack wrote:
The black panther incident is a shame, I would say it constitutes treason, he has a duty to protect everyone, the perpetration of race motivated crime should not be tolerated even if it did benefit him.(aka even if it was done in his interest)
Agreed, that right there is probably enough (if you can get evidence showing he directly ordered the dismissal) to impeach him.
techstepgenr8tion
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Inuyasha wrote:
ikorack wrote:
The black panther incident is a shame, I would say it constitutes treason, he has a duty to protect everyone, the perpetration of race motivated crime should not be tolerated even if it did benefit him.(aka even if it was done in his interest)
Agreed, that right there is probably enough (if you can get evidence showing he directly ordered the dismissal) to impeach him.
That said I *really* *really* hope no one tries. Everyone loves the victim and no matter how much he might swing wide as a president impeachment attempts would likely wash it even and get him another four years. No one could want Obama impeachment hearings more than the dems.
_________________
The loneliest part of life: it's not just that no one is on your cloud, few can even see your cloud.
techstepgenr8tion wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
ikorack wrote:
The black panther incident is a shame, I would say it constitutes treason, he has a duty to protect everyone, the perpetration of race motivated crime should not be tolerated even if it did benefit him.(aka even if it was done in his interest)
Agreed, that right there is probably enough (if you can get evidence showing he directly ordered the dismissal) to impeach him.
That said I *really* *really* hope no one tries. Everyone loves the victim and no matter how much he might swing wide as a president impeachment attempts would likely wash it even and get him another four years. No one could want Obama impeachment hearings more than the dems.
Depends on the evidence, the Republicans would have to have some pretty damning evidence for an ironclad case if they went for impeachment. Otherwise you are right the Democrats would be able to spin it, if the evidence is good enough though, the Democrats could end up hurt rather than helped.
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