9 Things The Rich Don't Want You To Know About Taxes

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JeremyNJ1984
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15 Apr 2011, 11:47 am

Inuyasha wrote:
JeremyNJ1984 wrote:
If you really want to see how the rich avoid paying their share of taxes take a look at bloomberg businessweek from a couple of weeks ago...front page story of the top 10 methods/ways the top earners avoid paying taxes on wealth they make.


You do realize the overwhelming majority of the wealthy in this country didn't start out wealthy, further most of the wealthy in this country got there by working hard and being fiscally disciplined, and many of those are retirees. So you saying we should rob grandma and grandpa because the lunatics in Government are so incompetitent they can't balance their budget.

Additionally hiking taxes will hurt small businesses, because small business owners file taxes as individuals not corporations.


I never said anything about robbing anyone. Just because you came from nothing to create a business doesnt give you the right to not pay taxes or what the government states via law. Their are plenty of loopholes companies use avoid paying taxes into the American economy, which they should have too. That is the gist of my argument. I am not talking about a redistribution...in this tough economy, everyone is being asked to pay more, take home less in pay, etc...but the billion dollar companies are actively searching for ways to avoid paying taxes and are by and large successful at doing it. Government should be competant, but that doesnt mean we take our eyes off de-regulation of private business and the costs of doing so. Hiking taxes is a byproduct of the environment created from a time when taxes were lower...what does that say about the environment to begin with? your applying conservative standards of economic policy to a mess by and large created via conservative standards of how economic policy should be run.



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15 Apr 2011, 12:29 pm

JeremyNJ1984 wrote:
but the billion dollar companies are actively searching for ways to avoid paying taxes and are by and large successful at doing it.


To paraphrase myself from another thread: So given the choice between paying the government a lot of money, or paying some CPAs less money to figure out how to not pay the government a lot of money, you think just paying the higher amount is the smart move? Successful companies (and successful people) did not get that way by blindly shelling out when they have other options, and in the case of a publicly traded corporation not avoiding taxes where possible could trigger share holder action.


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15 Apr 2011, 12:43 pm

Dox47 wrote:
JeremyNJ1984 wrote:
but the billion dollar companies are actively searching for ways to avoid paying taxes and are by and large successful at doing it.


To paraphrase myself from another thread: So given the choice between paying the government a lot of money, or paying some CPAs less money to figure out how to not pay the government a lot of money, you think just paying the higher amount is the smart move? Successful companies (and successful people) did not get that way by blindly shelling out when they have other options, and in the case of a publicly traded corporation not avoiding taxes where possible could trigger share holder action.


Its shareholder interests vs stakeholder interests. Ok the tax shield is one 'tool' business use to reduce tax & at the same time increase the value of a business.



DW_a_mom
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15 Apr 2011, 1:50 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
JeremyNJ1984 wrote:
If you really want to see how the rich avoid paying their share of taxes take a look at bloomberg businessweek from a couple of weeks ago...front page story of the top 10 methods/ways the top earners avoid paying taxes on wealth they make.


You do realize the overwhelming majority of the wealthy in this country didn't start out wealthy, further most of the wealthy in this country got there by working hard and being fiscally disciplined, and many of those are retirees. So you saying we should rob grandma and grandpa because the lunatics in Government are so incompetitent they can't balance their budget.

Additionally hiking taxes will hurt small businesses, because small business owners file taxes as individuals not corporations.


Rob grandma and grandpa? No, ask them to pay their fair share. What THEY know is their fair share.

As for small businesses filing as individuals - they have made a choice. They are entirely free to make a different choice. Generally, the choice is made because it means less taxes for that person and that business. Your argument there is off base. So many people talk it, but give me the precise examples, and I can show you where the real problem was. Almost never where the complaining small business owner thought it was, and certainly not where the politician claims it was. We need small businesses to understand their tax obligations, not fall into additional misleading jargon traps.

I will say this: the paperwork and reporting requirements for a small business are definitely an issue. Not the actual tax payments, that isn't what gets them in trouble (except for payroll taxes, amazing how many forget that the income tax they withheld from an employee's paycheck isn't their money and never was their money, they are just acting as a trustee at that point). What does get them in trouble is the variety of filing requirements from different agencies, and how to keep track of all that, and how to understand it enough to stay in compliance. On that, I feel for a small business, it is really overkill (even if it does guarantee my employment ;) ). But this very real issue won't get fixed by lowering taxes. Wrong scape goat.

In fact, I would suggest that the need to have the illusion of lower taxes may well contribute to the mess. We cut income taxes and that cuts the payments trickling down to other areas of government. How do these other areas of government make it up in order to provide very real and necessary services? New taxes and fees of different names and different colors. New returns to file, new regulations to follow. And the funny thing is, many claim that Reagan is the one who showed everyone how that is done (lowered income taxes, created new excise taxes).

Be careful what you wish for.


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DW_a_mom
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15 Apr 2011, 2:11 pm

Dox47 wrote:
JeremyNJ1984 wrote:
but the billion dollar companies are actively searching for ways to avoid paying taxes and are by and large successful at doing it.


To paraphrase myself from another thread: So given the choice between paying the government a lot of money, or paying some CPAs less money to figure out how to not pay the government a lot of money, you think just paying the higher amount is the smart move? Successful companies (and successful people) did not get that way by blindly shelling out when they have other options, and in the case of a publicly traded corporation not avoiding taxes where possible could trigger share holder action.


Really good point.

It is considered a moral duty to take full advantage of the laws that exist to pay the smallest tax legally possible. To NOT do so would be to give away competitive advantage to other guy in your exact same situation. As a tax professional, I totally "get" this.

If there is a problem with a wealthy individual or a business not paying their fair share, then the place to look is the law that allowed it. We just have to be careful that we don't create more harm in the places we didn't want to create it.

My clients aren't going to stop taking advantage of the law that exists. They are saying they are ready to have some of those laws changed in a way that causes them to pay more. It's got to be an even playing field between them and their competitors.

I do find it amusing that people want to blame the taxpayers, and not those who write the tax laws. It is the laws that could use a little tweaking. Again ;)


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15 Apr 2011, 3:04 pm

Interesting to me that fear is instilled that we will lose jobs from small business and overseas because of tax bracket increases, but the loss of loopholes is not seen as a bigger concern for Big Business and a choice of whether or not they continue to do business here and/or generate new jobs.

It doesn't seem likely to me that small increases in taxes are of much concern to those that use loopholes to avoid paying tax.

I think most people in the general public, Republican and Democrat, agree that those loopholes should be closed. For the most part, politicians seem to agree.

I've used this example before and I like the simplicity of it. I'm not sure why Democrats don't use it, for an understanding of what a tax increase really means, other than the understanding of how small the public attention span is for details or tax info.

For those families that have an adjusted gross income (AGI) of $250,000 the average total income for these people is $315,000. For those people an adjustment to the tax bracket means they keep the same average $6500 tax savings they had from the 2001 tax cut. They see no increase in taxes from the adjustment of the top two tax brackets.

A 3% tax increase only affects money above the AGI of $250,000 up to an AGI of $379,150.
So for a family with a total income of $400,000 and an average AGI of $315,000 they pay an additional tax of $2550 a year. This is not even a tenth of one percent of their total income. If they run a small business it is not likely to have a significant impact.

They keep the average $6500 tax bracket savings on their earnings up to $250,000. So, they keep 72% of the tax savings from 2001.


A majority of the trillion dollars in tax revenue is generated by those that earn much more and are more likely to use loopholes to avoid paying tax. An agreement to close those loopholes by politicians and the general public, is going to affect those that use loopholes more than a small tax increase.



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15 Apr 2011, 3:21 pm

Actually, there is a twist here the conversation has somewhat ignored to date.

In California, as far as I can tell, very few wealthy individuals pay regular income tax. Instead, they pay tax under the alternative minimum tax system. An alternate tax calculation intended to bite people who were getting too many goodies out of the tax laws. The reason it bites virtually every single one of my clients? State taxes. Deductible under the regular system, but not under AMT.

Why doesn't congress fix AMT? Because the average, middle class taxpayer doesn't see it and, thus, it isn't a hot enough political issue. You can argue about the regular income tax rates right and left, but until you change AMT, you haven't changed what most of my clients pay at all. In other words, a lot of talk that does absolutely nothing for them. Completely academic exercise. A way of earning political points. Congress then makes it up through the back door by tweaking the AMT rate up and very few notice. They've been doing it for years.

We really need to get real about the tax system in this country. I am so tired of the focus on the maximum income tax rate. As if that is the single biggest driving force on a tax return. That is so far from reality it would be funny if it wasn't so inclined to drive poor policy decisions.

Remember what I posted about too many taxes and too many agencies? Win on the rate and lose somewhere else? AMT is a good example.

You aren't going to balance the budget by cutting taxes. It's this strange dream that if you reduce revenue you will force a way to reduce expenses. You know what that translates to? A family that signed a long term lease for a $1,000 a month apartment, and now is told their income is only going to be $800. They can't reduce their expenses because they have already made a committment. THAT is the situation with our government: the committments are made. We very much need to talk about weaning ourselves out of some, because the costs are accumulating more than we can afford, but that isn't going to happen tomorrow or the next day. The only way to pay the rent on the apartment is to increase the revenue. When the political climent causes the politicians to play "reduce tax" games, someone somewhere will get creative to make up the difference. It's the only way to pay the rent.


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16 Apr 2011, 12:45 am

ruveyn wrote:
I have donated over 60 units of platelets in the last five years, voluntarily given, right from my heart and veins. They tell me at the Blood Service that I have save at least a dozen lives. And you call that wasted?

How is that even possible? The blood centers down here make me wait months in between donations, especially when I give components instead of whole blood (they usually have me give red bloods cells, and they mandate a four month wait between donations of RBCs). I donate as often as there is an opportunity, and I've only given a gallon over the past 2.5 years. I think donations of platelets require a 3-month wait between donations.


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16 Apr 2011, 10:45 am

In the old days, only the very wealthy paid income tax. Later, the higher brackets started kicking in at a very high level. Then came tax bracket creep, a perfect way to make people who make less money pay more of the burden.



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16 Apr 2011, 12:15 pm

Thought this was a good article on how much money could be raised if taxes are increased on the wealth. It is less than I would have thought.

Soak Rich, Bust The Budget
http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysi ... Budget.htm

Snippet of the article:

Quote:
Taxes: President Obama wants higher rates and fewer breaks, but only for the over-$250,000 set. That may or may not work politically, but as fiscal policy it's likely to make a bad situation worse.

There he goes again. Forced by resurgent Republicans last year to put his tax-hike plans on hold, Obama has returned to the charge. Last week he offered a soak-the-rich tax policy as a key part of his deficit-reduction plan. He would raise rates and cut credits and deductions, but only for the well-off.

In the past, this kind of talk has played well in the polls. But voters may be seeing through it now. In a new AP poll, 62% of the respondents said spending cuts were the way to cut the deficit, with only 20% favoring tax hikes. And in the latest IBD/TIPP Poll, 92% of Americans said cutting government spending is important.

Plus, the president faces some dissent in his own party. West Virginia Sen. Joe Manchin recently repeated his vow to oppose higher taxes on "American families and small businesses making $250,000."

So the political value of using the tax code for class warfare may be iffy at best.

The picture is much clearer on the fiscal front. As a way to reduce deficits, shifting tax burdens up the income scale fails to solve the problem and could well make it worse.

One reason for this is purely mathematical. The deficit is far larger than any revenues that could feasibly be squeezed out of the rich.

Internal Revenue Service data tell why.

Over an adjusted gross income threshold of $200,000 — lower than the $250,000 that signifies "rich" to the Obama administration — total taxable income from all returns was $2.061 trillion in 2008 (the latest year available). This income generated $531 billion in taxes.

Let's say the top rate had been the Clinton era 39.6% instead of 35%, and the capital gains rate was back to 20%. That would have raised the 2008 tax yield by about $50 billion. Even assuming 2010 incomes are higher than in the recession year of 2008, these rate hikes don't add up to serious deficit relief.

Raising the top rate to 50% in 2008 would have added a total of $114 billion — still not impressive. And here we're getting into Fantasyland. Even the "People's Budget" of the Congressional Progressive Caucus would raise rates only to 45% for couples making $1 million and 49% for incomes of $1 billion and up.