The belief in prayer, but not in God/afterlife

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Can you just clarify that? Because I got an impression from that I did not like.

I try to break down an argument into facts that are universally acceptable, and not easily refutable. I also try not to direct those arguments at first person, but rather at the opinion at hand.

Does it do anyone any good to blame life for being unfair?

If we find a behavior in life that makes it easier, should we toss it away? Is life too long?

Is there a way we can escape life as long as we live?

The reason I picked those statements is I think they are statements most people can relate to regardless of ideology.

The thing I am sure of in life, is all we have are moments. If prayer were to make a person feel better at this moment than if I they didn't utilize prayer, would it be the right decision not to utilize it?

I know for sure that the answer to that is one that an individual cannot possibly know unless they are able to somehow become part of that person in question.

There is research that suggests that some do not easily benefit from prayer or placebo; based on that research I find it no more surprising that some think prayer is useful and some don't.

I try to core my statements from some objective evidence; there is nothing black and white in life except ideology. It is not likely I will present evidence that will change ideology, that's not what I'm attempting to do, at most I might spark another view at a different ideology, just for the sake of understanding.

I think that was what the OP was asking for.

And if by Bronze age fairy tale, you mean anything that even vaguely suggests the existence of an afterlife or god or offer validation for anything that could be tied to religion, or anything outside of atheism, then yes, looks like we agree. And I don't feel like that's me at all. I'm an agnostic that believes in the possibility of something after this life, but I've had athiests on here insist that makes me christian, and proceed to tell me how little evidence there is in the Bible, when I never even brought the damn thing up. Again, there's nothing intelligent about cramming accusations down someone's throat and saying it's theirs. (not that I'm saying you have Bethie, but I kinda feel that's where that other guy was going.



What's so ambiguous about what I said? Tell me what you don't get, and I'll elaborate. PS: I could tell Ryan was just trying to set me up to contradict me. He summarized what I said with things that I did NOT say in the first place, so I shrugged it off with a "Sure, whatever, why not." I wasn't actually validating what he said. In my experience, talking with those kinds of people goes nowhere. If people wanna ask me what I meant or explain what they don't understand, I'm fine with it. When they type it back to me, and add things I never said in the first place, then insist that's what I mean no matter I say, that's not me being ambiguous. And maybe from now on I won't respond to them, because I can't win with somebody who just wants to mess with me.



I honestly don't think so. I think they disagree, so they enjoy twisting what I say into something completely different.

Please tell me what's ambiguous about what I said. If you really don't understand my reasoning, I can try to explain what doesn't make sense.

Expressing an opinion and cramming it down someone's throat are two different things.

If I was a relative to that woman, and you told me 'life's not fair' as to why "God" answered the prayers of some people in a lesser crisis than being locked in a dungeon for 24 years being repeatedly raped and tortured, I hope the people on this board, the moderators, and you would understand me stating my need to scold you. There is NO way you would EVER tell her what you said to me. The only reason why you said it is because your RELIGION makes you think that.

It is this reasoning that makes religion terrible: since you have faith in a "God", people have to make things up as to why "God" is good, gracious, and loves their creation. Between this and all the circumcisions, all the ethnic cleansings, all the Crusades and jihads, all the slavery and twisting Biblical and other spiritual passages to retain some hold on secular power, I do not understand how anyone can sit here and tell me, "it happens on the other side as well" when not having religion would eliminate at least these instances. If you look more into the Balkans, Rwanda, and other genocides, you would see that religion is a major part of these atrocities.

To keep with the thread: prayer to a "higher power" only works as a placebo. The human body has great power: on a positive note faith can really change people's lives if they think a prayer gave them tremendous fortune. Richard Dawkins says if your religion makes you do good, then he has no problem with that. Trying to explain how prayer only works for some, why only certain passages should be taken literally as other terrible ones get pushed to the side, or how faith has caused TREMENDOUS suffering throughout the world if you are not part of one clique, will not make me come to the same conclusion as him.

I think the OP was intent in keeping "God or an After Life" out of the equation on why prayer is valuable.

My statement that it doesn't do any good to get mad at life because it is not fair, was not directed at Anne Frank, but as a general statement that if one does not believe in God, it doesn't make much sense to me to get mad at something one does not believe in, but if it helps one feel better more power to them; whom else can one get mad at when life is unfair; life? In the case of Anne Frank the entities to get mad at were those that tortured her and kept her captive.

I still maintain it wouldn't surpise me if she gained comfort from her faith and prayers through her ordeal, regardless if she received what she was praying for. It is also likely that her relatives haven't lost their faith and their use of prayer, over the fact that her prayers were not answered.

Is it possible to talk about the value of prayer without bringing God and the Afterlife into the equation, and the obvious fact that not everyone's prayer is answered?

I think that was the Op's intent; I was trying to frame my answers around it.

I essentially agree with all of the above, and I would only add this one thought:

"It depends on the individual" might first refer to the effect any individual might experience from any of the above, but then the question becomes one of what to do if/when no effect is experienced at all and there seems to be nothing the individual can do about that (and that is where my own "Why not try something 'spiritual' (supernatural)?" comes out).

I think there are some that really can't get a benefit out of prayer, even if they try. It could be from how they view prayer and/or their intrinsic ability to feel a benefit from it.

But for those that view it as a negative thing; it is hard to convince them there is benefit there, regardless of if they could benefit from if they placed value on it. I think the possibility remains, though, that some intrinsically get more of a benefit than others.

I understand why, for someone that has benefitted from it greatly, that they would want to share that potential with someone else. It's worth a try if the other person has an open mind about it.

There may be a kind of resentment that builds in a young person consciously or subconsciouly, in not being able to understand what it is that motivates someone to do something, when the person that observes that behavior cannot find the motivation or get any benefit from the practice of the behavior. Particularly, if the majority of people around them engage in it. If so, I think that is understandable; and just another part of human nature.

Certainly, and I thank you.

Edit: In my own case, I am definitely aware of "self-use" prayer in the sense of just praying because I know the effect I can/will get ...

... and I cannot say I never do that. At the same time, however, there is still a "matter of conscience" (at least for me) in the sense of not being merely utilitarian -- "using 'God'" -- or even superstitiously manipulative (as if "god" might somehow be impressed and then "grant my wish").

Sometimes faith is all people have to hang onto. Speaking of the holocaust, gypsies and jews would hold their services in the latrine, because that's the one place the nazis wouldn't go. When asked if he ever lost faith, a rabbi once said absolutely not. Why? Because if he did, then all else was lost.

What is the wolf talking about? I went back over previous conversations in this thread, and it seems non sequiter. I think I understand it's anger though.

Praying for yourself has a certain inherent self centeredness which I'm uncomfortable with, but look passed when I do so. Why would the force of prayer help me, while it just let 200+ living, sentient, individual humans get killed by weather in the midwest? (And don't tell me they didn't pray- that was middle America.)

I have to concede that the wolf might be correct. It's nothing more than a placebo effect maybe, and after all, there is no truly scientific reason to believe otherwise. But because I have experienced some intensely beneficial coincidences after prayer, I also concede that there might be something more to prayer than thinking into thin air. Does that mean there's a God? That would be leaping too far. Everything in history we thought was God has since been explained away. If there's any truth to how prayer works -if it does- than it's probably scientific. The coincidences have always involved intervention from people. I'm guessing it might have to do with a human connection we can't quantify at this time in history.

The research on the placebo effect and prayer yield similiar results in the activation of the dopamine reward system. I think so much of prayer is a connection that binds people together, if nothing else in shared sentiment about a common purpose, whatever that purpose may be.

Faith is hope and shared hope for some can be more powerful than hope experienced alone. There are also chemical reactions and structural functioning in the brain that have been identified with social connections; so there is science there also.

Unfortunately, it appears that some do not get that same meaurable intrinsic reward from social connection that others do.

It is also evident, from research from mirror neurons, that some people can actually feel the sensation of the touch of another when they witness that person touching someone.

I don't discount the possibility of many more connections in life, that we can't measure. One day we may be able to measure more. I think that was your initial point, and something I too have kept an open mind about, most of my life.

At first I considered it a supernatural phenomenon, but then came to the opinion that everything is natural, we just can't measure some phenomenon.

Those were the good 'ole days of innocence when Santa and God were much of the same thing in my mind. When I was told Santa didn't exist, was when I first started questioning what was real and what was not real in life. But the fact remains the days of happiness I experienced looking forward to Santa, were fueled by the belief and not the reality. And those good feelings were as real as any other good feelings I had in life.

I think it is the same for people that never lose their faith in what they believe. It is the good feelings that count most for them, not the presents that one may or may not receive.

We had a child that didn't live long and I was tempted to get mad at someone, but came to the realization that there was no one else to get angry at but myself, and that wasn't too healthy of an alternative. Instead I accepted that it was a part of nature, that wasn't always good and wasn't always bad, but just something I would have to adjust to in my own way.

It's much harder to deal with when people harm others; the question of why becomes so much harder to discern. Unfortunately the truth there, is it is also a part of human nature, a part we don't like to think of, but it lies within us all; most of us don't fall to it, some of us do.

It may be easier to get mad at God who seems invisible to some and very likely not to exist for others, to at least have a way to vent some anger. The bad events in life are the things, we all deal with in the best way we can. There are many that feel as Herr Grimm does about religion and there is obviously many reasons for people to feel that way.

Not to argue too much here, but Santa actually was real and the result of "believing in Santa" was quite physically evident within every stocking ever hung on the mantel!

So then, it is actually kind of strange-funny that a very real and visible Santa is somehow then also presented as some kind of supernatural entity ... and then a truly supernatural entity gets poo-pooed because he does not happen to seem as real as Santa!

Truly, we do live in a day when everything really is backwards (exactly as mentioned somewhere within Scripture).


I grieve your loss, and I know that kind of experience and feeling well.

Thank you for your kind thoughts.

Regarding Santa the magic for me was the thought that someone could fly through the air and be everywhere at one time. At that time I imagined God on a throne, a distinguished looking White haired gentleman with a beard, not too terribly different than Santa. When wondering how God could pay attention to everyones prayers at the same time, I thought well if Santa can be everywhere at one time, I guess God can too.

For me the gifts were evidence that Santa believed I was good. And I also believed that when a good person prays his prayers are answered. I kept an unwavering faith for many years after I was notified that Santa no longer exists. However, it always confused me how Jesus and God could be the same thing after I found out Santa could not be everywhere at the same time.

It wasn't long after that, that I was no longer able to picture God, but still had faith in whatever God is.

What Secret? The world is open to those who would use their eyes and brains to see it for what it is.

ruveyn

I did not believe so. I stated what prayer was to me and gave an example how did not work. Then there was a tangent.

I personally believe all of that is exactly how our adversary works to confuse things in our minds while we are yet even just little children. To wit: We are told of a mis-spelled "Satan/Santa" who has all the attributes or characteristics we are then also told are the attributes or characteristics of God ...

... but then when God does not later seem to be doing His job, we are then told there never really was a Satan/Santa in the first place and we end up thinking all three -- Satan, Santa and God -- are merely fables and that we are therefore now believing in sky fairies if we might have nevertheless retained any actual thoughts that really are of God!

Note: No tin hat is required for figuring that one out!

Truly, it is today completely beyond my comprehension that my own ordained-Christian-minister brother can say the fairy tale of Santa is completely harmless! My only speculation about his delusion there says he is willingly deceived ... and I say that because his delusion helps him find paychecks just as surely as the same for a childhood friend of mine (who is now the "senior pastor" of the Chester Avenue (American) Baptist Church in Bakersfield -- the first I had ever heard of tongues-talking Baptists! -- and) finds pagan holidays acceptable there simply because "the people in the church like it (Christmas)" (and those are his very own words to me, when I had asked)!


Yes, and now many people -- not meaning you here -- say "f**k God!" (but still think "Santa" is nevertheless at least a bit cute!) when He (God) does not give them everything they want!


Same comment as just above.


By His grace, love, mercy or whatever else, so have I!


Yes ... and there we can actually see the "Jesus and God are the same" lie working in reverse and actually helping to protect us from that "God on a throne, a distinguished looking White haired gentleman with a beard, not too terribly different than Santa" image almost all of us did once have.

Last edited by leejosepho on 29 Apr 2011, 12:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

The Rhonda Byrne book.