do hippies not realize how homophobic muslims are

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Yep!

They even have a third sex in Pakistan called the hijra.

It's the Western notion of homosexuality that is abhorrent to them. Granted, they are forbidden homosexual acts in the scriptures but that is ignored (unless the people involved get caught, then they are in serious trouble). They still have the notion that it's only acts that are homosexual and not people. That was actually the idea in Europe until about the 19th century.

If a man in a Muslim country has gay sex and this is never discovered except by those involved, then it is not a big deal. If a man in a Muslim country comes out as gay and says he has a boyfriend, then he's anything from a social pariah to a dead man, depending on what country he is in.

EDIT: I don't know for certain if this is what happens, but it's what I've read. Why I was researching this stuff is another issue!

Last edited by puddingmouse on 01 May 2011, 6:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Funny comming from someone who has AS on his nickname.

Is it really the case? Or is it that the Christian right - as always - just believe they are the only target of criticism because of their painfully egocentric view?

For example, most of the viciously leftist atheistic blogs I read daily will not discriminate at all between criticizing Christians and Muslims, I think the whole thread is working under false assumptions.

It really depends. I think that atheist leftists, particularly STRIDENT atheist leftists, probably sling their fair share of attacks on Islam and love Everybody Draws Muhammad day and some even go through good ol' fashion Qu'ran tearing. Christian fundamentalists have notoriously biased memories, after all.

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2010 ... hammed.php



Nevertheless, I think due to sheer demographics and logistics, even anti-theistic atheistic leftists tend to focus more on homegrown Christian Fundamentalism.

I guess liberals are more likely to simply make fun of Islam instead of fantasizing about a "clash of civilizations" where the US ends up nuking millions of Muslims. Maybe it's a more empathetic understanding of human nature. Muslims are not automatically evil just because they were born into a religion that has some backwards/evil tendencies. After all, Islamic fundamentalism really sucks the most for those who happen to be born into it, especially those who happen to be female, gay, or of a thoughtful/skeptical nature. You can just go to any internet site for Islamic apostates to see that Islamic fundamentalism is a MUCH greater threat to Muslims than anyone else.

Oh, you're one of those people who have this "I'm okay, you're okay" outlook on stuff and believe that Western and Islamic cultures would be happy-happy pot-smoking motherf***ers if they stayed completely isolated from each other, abandoned all technology, became vegans and meditated twice a day.

Sorry for the caricature, but this kind of outlook really deeply annoys me, and people who tend to assume it don't seem to realize how deep, complex and ancient the connections between the cultures really are. When someone tries to explain the gritty realities of human history to them, it's like the offender has just burned down Disney Land and murdered Mickey.

The truth about Hijra, or Khusra, is that they are partly a religious weirdness that grew up in the Hindu faith, and they are usually devotees of either Bahuchara Mata, Shiva or both. However, they are tolerated or even embraced in certain Islamic cultures (strangely, even to some extent in Iran) in the same manner that Christians in Western Europe still practice a lot of their ancient Pagan traditions. To Arabic-speaking Muslims, they are Mukhannathun, "men who resemble women," and some of the hadiths even have stories about them. That toleration has survived almost in spite of Islam, which can sometimes be an invasive and parasitic culture in the same way that Christianity can be an invasive and parasitic culture in the West.

These wonderful local cultures where people like the Hijra are tolerated are under threat of extinction as Islamic fundamentalism spreads like the terrible and deadly plague it is. Islamic fundamentalism threatens to extinguish the tattered dregs of the ancient Nakh culture in the north and the nearly vanished remnants of pre-Islamic Indo-Pakistan.

This destructive, culture-destroying movement in Islam is very much like the one in Western Christianity that wants to ban the traditional celebration of Christmas because of its Pagan trappings. They even want to do away with celebrating Mohammed's birthday.

But the thing is, there are wonderful and non-offensive ways that we could protest against this in the West. We ourselves could celebrate and recognize some of the colorful and wonderful traditions that are abundant in organic Islam. We could open ourselves to some of the more colorful and festive Ramadan traditions.

Because Islamic culture has stories like King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table. They have colorful stories like the one we have where St. George defeats a terrible dragon and the story of how St. Patrick chased the snakes out of Ireland. They have their Halloween. They have their St. Stephens Day wren hunt. They keep and nurture these colorful traditions because, when they are allowed to live in something resembling peace, people are essentially the same in the simple respect that they never truly want to forget being children and being able to believe in wonderful things.

But also like us, they can fall victim to the peril of orthodoxy, and this is what we and many brave Muslim cultures are fighting against. The evil of fundamentalism was not born in the West, but it is a wickedness that can befoul any culture under certain conditions, just like civil war, racism or tyranny. No matter the form it takes, it is evil. It is a form of cultural genocide.

Last edited by WilliamWDelaney on 02 May 2011, 9:00 am, edited 2 times in total.

http://www.helem.net/node/62

You have no idea. I am basically a self-confessed Islamophobe (though I do dislike all religion)...and that's from a leftist, atheist position.

But yeah, men who have sex with men are common in the Islamic world. I actually think they should be able to identify as gay and have publicly acknowledged relationships and all that stuff. It's one of my strongest beliefs.

I was merely stating some research I'd done about homosexual behaviour in the Islamic world. Why would I reasearch that if I wasn't interested in LGBT rights globally, anyway? I wasn't offering my personal opinion, which is pretty much the same as yours.

Aside from a few cartoon characters out there who is it exactly that has that fantasy?

Oh, don't mind my ranting, PuddingMouse. I am just a disagreeable grump.

but a knowledgeable one

Thank you, and also you are right about homosexuality in a lot of Islamic countries. In Saudi Arabia, gay sex is technically punishable by death, but it hasn't really been enforced or taken seriously for a long time. There is almost a sense of, "we don't really give a crap and it's all very stupid, but don't let the imam know."

Actually, I have been wanting to do some more serious study for a long time on the Vainakh culture and traditions surviving from it, but I can't find any good books on it. I'm still searching the university library for something informative. I mean, it's hard enough finding truly informative texts on the history and origins of the Wren Hunt some historically Celtic cultures have on St. Stephen's Day. Digging up facts on an alien and less intact culture is almost impossible. Heck, extricating these customs from the versions of the ostensibly dominant culture in the region is like plucking hens' teeth.

Last edited by WilliamWDelaney on 02 May 2011, 10:06 am, edited 3 times in total.

I didn't want to mention names but you can check out the "bin laden is dead" thread.

Don't get me wrong, I know who talks like that here already. I'm just curious on what percentage of the population in the US holds that sort of fantasy.

Millions of war-mongering, Armageddon-obsessed conservatives?
Have you ever spent any amount of time in the American South?

Ok, so what percentage of the conservative population do you think they make up?