What does the U.S Get from its support of Israel?

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AceOfSpades
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25 May 2011, 12:12 pm

blauSamstag wrote:

AceOfSpades wrote:

I also find it strange that liberals usually sling all the sh** at Israel yet say nothing about Hamas who are known to bomb cars and use children as shields. While I think Israel is overzealous at times, they are mostly doing what they have to do. I'm glad they aren't bending over and letting themselves get f**** in the ass.

Hi. I'm a liberal.

O hai thar. Not that I think all liberals are like that, but it's fitting that most do.

blauSamstag wrote:

Hamas is a problem that we are attacking the wrong way.

The difficulty with Hamas is that treating them like AlQaeda or AlShabab is to ignore where they get their base of support.

The truth about Hamas is that they are like the Salvation Army if they were run by the IRA.

Yeah they're terrorists. But they also provide financial and material support to the people they're fighting for.

If we want to defeat Hamas we have to replace the support they provide to their people.

Providing financial and material support for the people they're fighting for doesn't make em any better. It is nothing more than a return on investment. They do favours for the people they claim to have within their best interests, and in return they get support. They can't just act on their own, so they have to have people supporting em. Hamas cannot be negotiated with since they will not settle for anything less than reclaiming their holy land, so the way to deal with them would be less bombs and more boots on the ground since terrorists have a knack for getting sympathy on their side by sparking outrage in the international community in their favour.

blauSamstag
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25 May 2011, 1:02 pm

AceOfSpades wrote:

blauSamstag wrote:

AceOfSpades wrote:

Hi. I'm a liberal.

O hai thar. Not that I think all liberals are like that, but it's fitting that most do.

blauSamstag wrote:

right, it doesn't make them any less murderous and amoral. But it does make it very hard to win the "hearts and minds" side of the battle.

A lot of palestinians have a perception that, for all their faults, Hamas is taking care of them when nobody else can or will.

Somebody else has to step up and provide that care. I doubt that it can be the USA because we have no credibility.

Years ago one of my liberal friends suggested that there is already an organization in the middle east that has the capability and credibility to replace the Hamas support network, establish open markets, build farms and dairies and schools and hospitals, etc. And it turns out that it's the Bin Laden family.

Osama really was the black sheep of that family. He was the one that got radicalized. The rest of them are fairly progressive, even westernized.

But the USA will never go there. Maybe if we're astoundingly lucky a progressive regime will take hold in Egypt and we can funnel support through them.

Vexcalibur
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25 May 2011, 5:04 pm

91 wrote:

JakobVirgil wrote:

I think we should have a constitutional amendment precluding and non-food/medical gifts to foreign countries.

I don't agree, it was not all that long ago when Britain needed tanks to fight... food aid would not have been enough then.

Just add a Hitler provision.

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heylelshalem
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25 May 2011, 5:14 pm

AceOfSpades wrote:

blauSamstag wrote:

AceOfSpades wrote:

Hi. I'm a liberal.

O hai thar. Not that I think all liberals are like that, but it's fitting that most do.

blauSamstag wrote:

My belief on the issue is that if the US government forces its hand...Israel will allow foreighn aid..which will null and void the influence that Hamas has...sadly though all the aid flotillas that have tried to come to help the gaza strip for example have been stopped by heavy armed force. Its like Israel is shooting itself in the foot on this one lol.

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heylelshalem
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25 May 2011, 5:20 pm

I mean if you want to stop unrest in palestine. Make sure they have running water and electricity...enough food to eat..proper education and the ability to make a living. Right now they pretty much just sit and rot. Israel is a first world country for the most part and palestine is a fifth world country for the most part...I don't or will ever excuse terrorism but i can understand their frustration with the situation.

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Inuyasha
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25 May 2011, 5:32 pm

heylelshalem wrote:

AceOfSpades wrote:

blauSamstag wrote:

AceOfSpades wrote:

Hi. I'm a liberal.

O hai thar. Not that I think all liberals are like that, but it's fitting that most do.

blauSamstag wrote:

Funny, last I checked beating people with steel pipes doesn't remotely sound peaceful. Last I checked, calling for the slaughter of Jews, is not advocating for peace. Last I checked, stealing people's firearms (referring to your peaceful flotilla) and then opening fire with said firearms when the Israelis had not fired is hardly peaceful.

You either don't know what the term "peace" means, or you've been played for an idiot by the mainstream media.

i_wanna_blue
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25 May 2011, 5:32 pm

heylelshalem wrote:

It's no use. Despite what people would like us to believe they base their allegiances on emotion rather than choice, even the atheists. Everyone does it, and although I agree with you totally, most people on this forum just support Israel, because not doing so ultimately means that their country (USA) is not as "good" as they would like us to believe. Most of the wars started by the US have been done just to kick start their economy and to get raw materials by stealing them rather then buying them. Even though no other country in the world does this, by starting a war, people will still justify it, because to them the side they support can do no wrong. If I were you, I wouldn't try to defend Palestine. People's minds are made up already.

Inuyasha
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25 May 2011, 5:36 pm

i_wanna_blue wrote:

heylelshalem wrote:

I hate having to repeat myself:

Last I checked beating people with steel pipes doesn't remotely sound peaceful. Last I checked, calling for the slaughter of Jews, is not advocating for peace. Last I checked, stealing people's firearms (referring to your peaceful flotilla) and then opening fire with said firearms when the Israelis had not fired is hardly peaceful.

You either don't know what the term "peace" means, or you've been played for an idiot by the mainstream media.

MarketAndChurch
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25 May 2011, 5:39 pm

We get our values lived out in this part of the world. Democracy, Liberty, In God We Trust, Life, and Happiness. It provides for a Liberal, Secular society where linear thinking allows for the notion that there is progress to be made in this world, which to become an Israeli is to simply become a citizen, thus embracing E Pluribus Unum in every sense of the phrase(unlike the tribalistic neighbors that surrounds Israel.)

This is why we spend so much money in this little country of Israel.

The religious underpinnings are that God blesses those who bless the Jews and curses those who curse them. Historically, this is accurate.

We also spend slightly more then 850 million less on Egypt so that they can modernize themselves, and remain peaceful with Israel, the one jewish nation on earth.

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ruveyn
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25 May 2011, 5:41 pm

MarketAndChurch wrote:

Pretty thin gruel for a high price. I think Israel should be supported by voluntary contributions, not tax loot.

ruveyn

Inuyasha
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25 May 2011, 5:43 pm

ruveyn wrote:

MarketAndChurch wrote:

Pretty thin gruel for a high price. I think Israel should be supported by voluntary contributions, not tax loot.

ruveyn

For all we know, the taxpayer money is in reality interest payments because they own quite a bit of the US debt, it wouldn't surprise me.

ruveyn
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25 May 2011, 5:45 pm

Inuyasha wrote:

For all we know, the taxpayer money is in reality interest payments because they own quite a bit of the US debt, it wouldn't surprise me.

Do you have any facts to back that up?

ruveyn

Inuyasha
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25 May 2011, 5:51 pm

ruveyn wrote:

Inuyasha wrote:

For all we know, the taxpayer money is in reality interest payments because they own quite a bit of the US debt, it wouldn't surprise me.

Do you have any facts to back that up?

ruveyn

I haven't looked it up beyond the fact that Israel is a net lender not a net borrower. As for who all the US owes money, I'm pointing out that it quite honestly would not surprise me if we actually do owe Israel money.

Kraichgauer
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25 May 2011, 6:02 pm

Inuyasha wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

Inuyasha wrote:

For all we know, the taxpayer money is in reality interest payments because they own quite a bit of the US debt, it wouldn't surprise me.

Do you have any facts to back that up?

ruveyn

Considering all we've done for them, and the cost to ourselves for that support, anyone suggesting such a thing does so at the risk of being pummeled.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

Inuyasha
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25 May 2011, 6:04 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:

Inuyasha wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

Inuyasha wrote:

For all we know, the taxpayer money is in reality interest payments because they own quite a bit of the US debt, it wouldn't surprise me.

Do you have any facts to back that up?

ruveyn

Considering all we've done for them, and the cost to ourselves for that support, anyone suggesting such a thing does so at the risk of being pummeled.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

So did you realize you are advocating for a people to set themselves up to be slaughtered?

blauSamstag
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25 May 2011, 6:06 pm

Inuyasha wrote:

If you had been born in gaza, what would you do?

No jobs. No money. No food. No medical care. Essentially an open-air prison with deplorable conditions, enforced by a foreigner.

The violence has been going on for as long as you can remember, and there are five of your people dead for each one of theirs.

Do you suppose you might take offense? Maybe get a little angry?

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