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AceOfSpades
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25 May 2011, 10:00 pm

leejosepho wrote:
Awesomelyglorious wrote:
... to be patriotic was simply to support the success of oneself, the body that a person was a part of as a matter of birth, and it was a practical matter for that body to become as good as it could be.

I am now not patriotic, even in the abstract sense. Nations should not be glorified.

Agreed. I will not burn a flag, but neither will I stand for one.
I'll definitely stand for my flag, but I'm not gonna root for the Raptors just cuz they're the only Canadian basketball team.



leejosepho
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25 May 2011, 10:09 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
leejosepho wrote:
Agreed. I will not burn a flag, but neither will I stand for one.

Eh, I don't see why you couldn't have American flag toilet paper at this point. I mean, I've gone a very different direction that nationalism.

To each his own, I guess, but Ruveyn could give you my best response there.

AceOfSpades wrote:
I'll definitely stand for my flag, but I'm not gonna root for the Raptors just cuz they're the only Canadian basketball team.

At the local, oval, dirt race track, I might actually stand during the National Anthem if the large man behind me has a flag for a shirt ... 8O

... but I am definitely having something else playing in my mind at the time and I am definitely not actually looking at any flag!


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26 May 2011, 2:58 am

I'm a proud fascist nazi Canadian



ruveyn
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26 May 2011, 9:20 am

JakobVirgil wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Vexcalibur wrote:
Destroying enemies is self-destructive behavior.



Do you think the Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto uprising should have sung Kumbaya to the Nazis?

ruveyn


Gandhi did. I always thought that was weird


That he was. Ghandi was a super-calloused fragile mystic plagued with halitosis a super-calloused fragile mystic plagued with halitosis....

He discovered Reality was not an Illusion one day in 1948. Good riddance...

ruveyn



YippySkippy
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26 May 2011, 9:28 am

The practice of having small children pledge allegiance in school bothers me quite a bit.
For one thing, it is often done in public schools. The parents of many of the children can't afford to send them elsewhere for an education, so their only recourse if they object is to have their child singled out in front of the class by not participating. Who's going to choose to make their child the class weirdo?
For another thing, the children don't even understand what they're saying. Clearly it's only being recited in order to indoctrinate them before they reach a level of understanding where they can make choices about patriotism for themselves. It's CREEPY.



leejosepho
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26 May 2011, 9:36 am

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Srx30lxH9Rw[/youtube]


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ruveyn
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26 May 2011, 9:38 am

YippySkippy wrote:
The practice of having small children pledge allegiance in school bothers me quite a bit.
For one thing, it is often done in public schools. The parents of many of the children can't afford to send them elsewhere for an education, so their only recourse if they object is to have their child singled out in front of the class by not participating. Who's going to choose to make their child the class weirdo?
For another thing, the children don't even understand what they're saying. Clearly it's only being recited in order to indoctrinate them before they reach a level of understanding where they can make choices about patriotism for themselves. It's CREEPY.


It is also heathen idolatry.

ruveyn



Keeno
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26 May 2011, 9:56 am

My answer to how patriotic I am depends on whether we consider UK patriotism, or Scottish patriotism.

UK patriotism: Rather than go into a long rant about it, a measure of my lack of patriotism in the UK lies in the fact that if I wasn't already British and was born and live in the UK and am a citizen, I would have nothing to do with the UK and would have boycotted the UK for ethical reasons. Or at least an economic, political and cultural boycott, because it's not like I'd have nothing to do with the people because they're individuals and may possibly themselves be oppressed by the state or the country's culture. I enjoy the positive cultural aspects of the UK, it's just that the ethical reason happens to be a big deal to me and the UK has managed to overstep it. But being British, I just co-exist as best I can with Britishness while having very little pride in it.

Scottish patriotism: Here I feel a little more patriotic. My main possible concern is that if Scotland was to become independent (or even if it doesn't), it's just the sort of country that would happily retain the nanny state crap of the UK. Culturally it would no doubt take after countries such as USA, Canada, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Australia, New Zealand in this vein. And I can't look at any country, including Scotland, without seeing it bogged down by some negative cultural aspect or another. That said, for example I wouldn't ever support anyone else at football, rugby, or any sport, or feel any shame whatsoever expressing Scottishness.

I nevertheless agree that patriotism is something you are trained into and not born with. I guess patriotism is a form of respect, and respect has to be earned.



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26 May 2011, 10:04 am

ruveyn wrote:
Vexcalibur wrote:
Destroying enemies is self-destructive behavior.



Do you think the Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto uprising should have sung Kumbaya to the Nazis?

ruveyn
I never said you shouldn't destroy your enemies. But it is self-destructive. In some cases it may be the only choice, but it doesn't make it any less destructive. Suddenly, your goals depend not on your own success but in the failure of others, you stop living your life and become an antagonist in someone else's.

It is specially self-destructive if your enemies happen to just be guys who think different. "Destroy enemies" sounds ok when you Godwin the whole deal and bring nazis. But accept it, your enemies are nothing like nazis and you are not a Jew in Aushcwitz.


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Last edited by Vexcalibur on 26 May 2011, 10:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

ruveyn
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26 May 2011, 10:05 am

Keeno wrote:
My answer to how patriotic I am depends on whether we consider UK patriotism, or Scottish patriotism.

UK patriotism: Rather than go into a long rant about it, a measure of my lack of patriotism in the UK lies in the fact that if I wasn't already British and was born and live in the UK and am a citizen, I would have nothing to do with the UK and would have boycotted the UK for ethical reasons. Or at least an economic, political and cultural boycott, because it's not like I'd have nothing to do with the people because they're individuals and may possibly themselves be oppressed by the state or the country's culture. I enjoy the positive cultural aspects of the UK, it's just that the ethical reason happens to be a big deal to me and the UK has managed to overstep it. But being British, I just co-exist as best I can with Britishness while having very little pride in it.

Scottish patriotism: Here I feel a little more patriotic. My main possible concern is that if Scotland was to become independent (or even if it doesn't), it's just the sort of country that would happily retain the nanny state crap of the UK. Culturally it would no doubt take after countries such as USA, Canada, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Australia, New Zealand in this vein. And I can't look at any country, including Scotland, without seeing it bogged down by some negative cultural aspect or another. That said, for example I wouldn't ever support anyone else at football, rugby, or any sport, or feel any shame whatsoever expressing Scottishness.

I nevertheless agree that patriotism is something you are trained into and not born with. I guess patriotism is a form of respect, and respect has to be earned.


It was a great tragedy that King James went south and did his King business in English instead of retaining his Scots linguistic heritage. Damn Elizabeth for being barren.

ruveyn



donnie_darko
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03 Jun 2011, 5:57 pm

Good question!! !

It could end up being an obsession, but most Aspies on average are probably less patriotic than the average person. I've always seen the National Anthem/Pledge of Allegiance as just being a pointless tradition and not something that really matters, but I guess most people think otherwise, or at least claim to think otherwise.



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03 Jun 2011, 6:27 pm

GammaGeek wrote:

The wars disgust me, but the men and women who fight to their deaths just so I can safely sleep at night? They make me proud, despite my being a pacifist.


doesn't this mean a small part of you is not a pacifist though?



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03 Jun 2011, 6:33 pm

donnie_darko wrote:
GammaGeek wrote:

The wars disgust me, but the men and women who fight to their deaths just so I can safely sleep at night? They make me proud, despite my being a pacifist.


doesn't this mean a small part of you is not a pacifist though?


accepting the premise that wars promote nighttime sleep safety is a stretch and suggests a martial nature.


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ruveyn
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03 Jun 2011, 6:34 pm

JakobVirgil wrote:
donnie_darko wrote:
GammaGeek wrote:

The wars disgust me, but the men and women who fight to their deaths just so I can safely sleep at night? They make me proud, despite my being a pacifist.


doesn't this mean a small part of you is not a pacifist though?


accepting the premise that wars promote nighttime sleep safety is a stretch and suggests a martial nature.


Given that there is no draft anymore and hasn't been one for nearly 30 years, I have to assume people goto war because they crave battle.

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donnie_darko
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03 Jun 2011, 6:42 pm

JakobVirgil wrote:
donnie_darko wrote:
GammaGeek wrote:

The wars disgust me, but the men and women who fight to their deaths just so I can safely sleep at night? They make me proud, despite my being a pacifist.


doesn't this mean a small part of you is not a pacifist though?


accepting the premise that wars promote nighttime sleep safety is a stretch and suggests a martial nature.


im sure GammaGeek is a peaceful person, it just sounds like she's bought into some of the hawk propaganda.



ruveyn
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03 Jun 2011, 6:44 pm

JakobVirgil wrote:
donnie_darko wrote:
GammaGeek wrote:

The wars disgust me, but the men and women who fight to their deaths just so I can safely sleep at night? They make me proud, despite my being a pacifist.


doesn't this mean a small part of you is not a pacifist though?


accepting the premise that wars promote nighttime sleep safety is a stretch and suggests a martial nature.


Actually, wars promote more wars. But heck! Its good for business!

ruveyn