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Inuyasha
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31 May 2011, 6:20 pm

Orwell wrote:
First off, "right-wing" and "left-wing" are always relative terms. Secondly, "limited government" was not a traditional stance of the political right. When the terms "left" and "right" were first applied to politics, right-wingers wanted an all-powerful, unaccountable monarch while left-wingers wanted a limited constitutional government.


:roll:

From an American standpoint that quite honestly is not true and you know it. Next you'll be claiming Democrats were the abolitionist party when in reality it was the Republican party.



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31 May 2011, 6:29 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
Orwell wrote:
First off, "right-wing" and "left-wing" are always relative terms. Secondly, "limited government" was not a traditional stance of the political right. When the terms "left" and "right" were first applied to politics, right-wingers wanted an all-powerful, unaccountable monarch while left-wingers wanted a limited constitutional government.


:roll:

From an American standpoint that quite honestly is not true and you know it. Next you'll be claiming Democrats were the abolitionist party when in reality it was the Republican party.

Bloody hell, learn to read. If the only thing that could possibly be relevant is the American context, why bother commenting on foreign leaders at all? And even at America's founding, the right-wing (eg Hamilton) was in favor of a much more powerful government than the left-wing (eg Jefferson).

You seem to have a false sense of continuity about America's political parties. The Republican party started out as a left-wing party, and it wasn't really until the latter half of the 20th century that they began to move right. The Democrats also started out as left-wing (as the Democratic-Republicans) but after establishing dominance and driving out the Federalists they moved to the right. They were right-wing by the mid-19th century and remained there roughly until FDR.


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Inuyasha
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31 May 2011, 6:39 pm

Orwell wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
Orwell wrote:
First off, "right-wing" and "left-wing" are always relative terms. Secondly, "limited government" was not a traditional stance of the political right. When the terms "left" and "right" were first applied to politics, right-wingers wanted an all-powerful, unaccountable monarch while left-wingers wanted a limited constitutional government.


:roll:

From an American standpoint that quite honestly is not true and you know it. Next you'll be claiming Democrats were the abolitionist party when in reality it was the Republican party.

Bloody hell, learn to read. If the only thing that could possibly be relevant is the American context, why bother commenting on foreign leaders at all? And even at America's founding, the right-wing (eg Hamilton) was in favor of a much more powerful government than the left-wing (eg Jefferson).

You seem to have a false sense of continuity about America's political parties. The Republican party started out as a left-wing party, and it wasn't really until the latter half of the 20th century that they began to move right. The Democrats also started out as left-wing (as the Democratic-Republicans) but after establishing dominance and driving out the Federalists they moved to the right. They were right-wing by the mid-19th century and remained there roughly until FDR.


The Federalists ceased to exist pre-civil war. It was the Whig party which fell apart. The Republican Party was created by abolitionists.



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31 May 2011, 6:41 pm

I am aware of all that, Inuyasha.


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JakobVirgil
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31 May 2011, 6:43 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
Orwell wrote:
JakobVirgil wrote:
what we saw was a far-left revolution hijacked from the right by Bolsheviks (the right of the left :?)

The first revolution was a bourgeois revolution, not really far-left (although it was a somewhat confused matter... there certainly were far-left elements hanging around). The Bolsheviks at least started out as far-left, but they were hijacked from within by the right-wing of their own party, led by Stalin.


:roll:

I don't recall Stalin calling for limited government.


Oh thats because in right side up world
Right = authoritarianism
Left = democracy

@orwell the bolsheviks were always flanked on the left anarchists "followers" of kropotkin Baukin etc.
(who wanted very limited government) then they killed them.
Bolshevism the soviet system and the concept of the vanguard have been a cancer on the left
5 years never seems to end.


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31 May 2011, 6:48 pm

JakobVirgil wrote:
@orwell the bolsheviks were always flanked on the left anarchists "followers" of kropotkin Baukin etc.
(who wanted very limited government) then they killed them.
Bolshevism the soviet system and the concept of the vanguard have been a cancer on the left
5 years never seems to end.

True. I guess I tend to disregard the anarchists. Perhaps partly because I know they'll never organize.


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marshall
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31 May 2011, 7:48 pm

Orwell wrote:
JakobVirgil wrote:
@orwell the bolsheviks were always flanked on the left anarchists "followers" of kropotkin Baukin etc.
(who wanted very limited government) then they killed them.
Bolshevism the soviet system and the concept of the vanguard have been a cancer on the left
5 years never seems to end.

True. I guess I tend to disregard the anarchists. Perhaps partly because I know they'll never organize.

Of course they are never successful. The very idea of anarchist politics seems like an oxymoron. How can a stateless egalitarian society come about through the political control of a state? :?



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31 May 2011, 8:20 pm

I think of it like a limit in the calculus something that is approached but never reached.

Quote:
the arc of history is long but it tends toward justice -M.L.K.

Quote:
...towards a more perfect union... -Abraham Lincoln

that sort of thing.
Also it must be remembered that anarchists are opposed to coercion not organization.
Quote:
who needs actions when we got words -The Meat Puppets


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Philologos
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31 May 2011, 9:13 pm

In my anarchist moments I oppose / have opposed organization.

But as a pessimist idealist anarchist I realize there are not enough like thinkers in esistence to force or persuade the Organization Men into permitting us a non-society.



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01 Jun 2011, 11:46 am

JakobVirgil wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
Orwell wrote:
JakobVirgil wrote:
what we saw was a far-left revolution hijacked from the right by Bolsheviks (the right of the left :?)

The first revolution was a bourgeois revolution, not really far-left (although it was a somewhat confused matter... there certainly were far-left elements hanging around). The Bolsheviks at least started out as far-left, but they were hijacked from within by the right-wing of their own party, led by Stalin.


:roll:

I don't recall Stalin calling for limited government.


Oh thats because in right side up world
Right = authoritarianism
Left = democracy

@orwell the bolsheviks were always flanked on the left anarchists "followers" of kropotkin Baukin etc.
(who wanted very limited government) then they killed them.
Bolshevism the soviet system and the concept of the vanguard have been a cancer on the left
5 years never seems to end.


All you've proven is that you can't acknowledge the fact Communism is a creation of the left, heck they were even atheists to boot.



JakobVirgil
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01 Jun 2011, 11:53 am

Inuyasha wrote:
JakobVirgil wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
Orwell wrote:
JakobVirgil wrote:
what we saw was a far-left revolution hijacked from the right by Bolsheviks (the right of the left :?)

The first revolution was a bourgeois revolution, not really far-left (although it was a somewhat confused matter... there certainly were far-left elements hanging around). The Bolsheviks at least started out as far-left, but they were hijacked from within by the right-wing of their own party, led by Stalin.


:roll:

I don't recall Stalin calling for limited government.


Oh thats because in right side up world
Right = authoritarianism
Left = democracy

@orwell the bolsheviks were always flanked on the left anarchists "followers" of kropotkin Baukin etc.
(who wanted very limited government) then they killed them.
Bolshevism the soviet system and the concept of the vanguard have been a cancer on the left
5 years never seems to end.


All you've proven is that you can't acknowledge the fact Communism is a creation of the left, heck they were even atheists to boot.

oh no my darling boy I believe that Marx is a leftist and that the Bolsheviks were
(at the beginning by the end it was just Russian imperialism).
I will agree that Joe was a product of the left but in the same way that your father is disappointed in you ...
read up on the forth international and the anti-Stalinist left.


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?We must not look at goblin men,
We must not buy their fruits:
Who knows upon what soil they fed
Their hungry thirsty roots??

http://jakobvirgil.blogspot.com/


Inuyasha
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01 Jun 2011, 12:24 pm

JakobVirgil wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
JakobVirgil wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
Orwell wrote:
JakobVirgil wrote:
what we saw was a far-left revolution hijacked from the right by Bolsheviks (the right of the left :?)

The first revolution was a bourgeois revolution, not really far-left (although it was a somewhat confused matter... there certainly were far-left elements hanging around). The Bolsheviks at least started out as far-left, but they were hijacked from within by the right-wing of their own party, led by Stalin.


:roll:

I don't recall Stalin calling for limited government.


Oh thats because in right side up world
Right = authoritarianism
Left = democracy

@orwell the bolsheviks were always flanked on the left anarchists "followers" of kropotkin Baukin etc.
(who wanted very limited government) then they killed them.
Bolshevism the soviet system and the concept of the vanguard have been a cancer on the left
5 years never seems to end.


All you've proven is that you can't acknowledge the fact Communism is a creation of the left, heck they were even atheists to boot.

oh no my darling boy I believe that Marx is a leftist and that the Bolsheviks were
(at the beginning by the end it was just Russian imperialism).
I will agree that Joe was a product of the left but in the same way that your father is disappointed in you ...
read up on the forth international and the anti-Stalinist left.


....

Any other juvenile wisecracks.... :roll:



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01 Jun 2011, 12:31 pm

Wise cracks or not, he's right. Stalin came to announce that "the enemy is on the left," and tried to court Hitler (prior to Hitler's double cross in WWII), while ordering communists in Germany not to side with the Social Democrats, which may have in fact stopped Hitler early on.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



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01 Jun 2011, 12:33 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
Wise cracks or not, he's right. Stalin came to announce that "the enemy is on the left," and tried to court Hitler (prior to Hitler's double cross in WWII), while ordering communists in Germany not to side with the Social Democrats, which may have in fact stopped Hitler early on.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


You are confusing trying to secure one's power base, with political affiliation.



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01 Jun 2011, 12:48 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Wise cracks or not, he's right. Stalin came to announce that "the enemy is on the left," and tried to court Hitler (prior to Hitler's double cross in WWII), while ordering communists in Germany not to side with the Social Democrats, which may have in fact stopped Hitler early on.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


You are confusing trying to secure one's power base, with political affiliation.


You are so infected with the genetic fallacy I don't think you can be allowed to use the word confused.
You are trying to do calculus on discontinuous functions.
so was Cain a Reagan republican or a Obama democrat?
How about Abel?
if you would just ask your mom to read it to you.
She would tell you that I think poorly of Joe Stalin and the Bolsheviks.
If you were not too busy having warm sticky thoughts about Glenn Beck
you would realize that there was a great schism in the international Left
on the Issue of the Spanish civil war. That comrade Stalin is not a beloved figure
of the left but considered a betrayer and a counter-revolutionary.


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?We must not look at goblin men,
We must not buy their fruits:
Who knows upon what soil they fed
Their hungry thirsty roots??

http://jakobvirgil.blogspot.com/


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01 Jun 2011, 1:18 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Wise cracks or not, he's right. Stalin came to announce that "the enemy is on the left," and tried to court Hitler (prior to Hitler's double cross in WWII), while ordering communists in Germany not to side with the Social Democrats, which may have in fact stopped Hitler early on.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


You are confusing trying to secure one's power base, with political affiliation.


No, Stalin was showing his true colors. He was a fascist posing as a leftist from the start. Again, he had approached Hitler with talk of an alliance.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer