Board index › Topical Discussion › Politics, Philosophy, and Religion

What is so bad about socialism anyways?

Page 4 of 13 [ 196 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 ... 13  Next

Previous topic | Next topic

AceOfSpades
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 11 Feb 2006
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,754
Location: Sean Penn, Cambodia

11 Aug 2011, 11:58 am

ruveyn wrote:
AceOfSpades wrote:
Actually it is anarchism that sounds idealistic. We wouldn't need a Government to keep us rabid dogs on a leash if we were saints. Socialism is a really cynical sounding ideology.


Without a government, what would keep the strong from eating the weak? Read Hobbes on this question. -Leviathan-.

ruveyn
That was the point :?



Subotai
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 24 Sep 2010
Age: 39
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,036
Location: 日本

11 Aug 2011, 12:00 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
Subotai wrote:
Corruption is an inevitability. It's interesting how abusing specific systems becomes a science on it's own, our current system however is the best we've seen for combating corruption.

I think it goes beyond just human nature to the nature of life itself and evolutionary drive.


Really? are you honestly suggesting the U.S has the best system for combating corruption.....if that is true why is there so much freaking coruption and why is our government owned by corporate america?


I'm not saying our system isn't corrupt, but it was intricately designed to hinder total corruption.
Look at the not so distant past, look at monarchies and un-unionized factories.



Sweetleaf
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 Jan 2011
Age: 36
Gender: Female
Posts: 35,278
Location: Somewhere in Colorado

11 Aug 2011, 12:01 pm

Subotai wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Subotai wrote:
Corruption is an inevitability. It's interesting how abusing specific systems becomes a science on it's own, our current system however is the best we've seen for combating corruption.

I think it goes beyond just human nature to the nature of life itself and evolutionary drive.


Really? are you honestly suggesting the U.S has the best system for combating corruption.....if that is true why is there so much freaking coruption and why is our government owned by corporate america?


I'm not saying our system isn't corrupt, but it was intricately designed to hinder total corruption.
Look at the not so distant past, look at monarchies and un-unionized factories.


But we pretty much have total corruption, and many people are too distracted by unimportant things to even notice.



ruveyn
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Age: 89
Gender: Male
Posts: 31,502
Location: New Jersey

11 Aug 2011, 12:01 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
AceOfSpades wrote:
Actually it is anarchism that sounds idealistic. We wouldn't need a Government to keep us rabid dogs on a leash if we were saints. Socialism is a really cynical sounding ideology.


Without a government, what would keep the strong from eating the weak? Read Hobbes on this question. -Leviathan-.

ruveyn


The strong are already eating the weak so to speak.


Yes. But in a system of laws, they have to chew slowly with their mouths closed.

ruveyn



Subotai
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 24 Sep 2010
Age: 39
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,036
Location: 日本

11 Aug 2011, 12:03 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:

Well yes that is why I pointed out....such a system can be abused, so there would have to be a way to prevent that sort of abuse.


Not can be, but will be. And there is no way of preventing it short of changing human nature. Which cannot happen in any reasonable length of time. Evolution operates over periods of tens of thousands of years or more. As long as humans are what they are, socialism is a guaranteed failure.

Humans are the smartest, baddest apes in The Primate House. Live with it.

ruveyn


And what are humans......a bunch of selfish pigs that should never be responsible for how they treat others? I think some of this 'human nature' has been conditioned and can be unconditioned. Also I realise everyone has to take care of their own needs before they do much to help anyone else......but that is no need for society and the media to encourage a divided culture where people fight over the stupidest things...and are willing to step on as many people as they can in an attempt to get to the top.

And I have lived with it.....as a child I was constantly picked on, made fun of and bullied by students and teachers, at home I was not allowed to be upset about my parents fighting all the time or I would get yelled at for making things worse. and I have learned in my adult life I will probably be spit on due to my financial situation and some of my mental problems that interfere with my functioning. But I guess that is ok.........I should just get over it, if I can't toughen the hell up and start stepping on some toes myself I should just shut up and get out of the way.


I think all of us are capable of being corrupted by power. Our nature is to strive for more than we have.

As citizens of the first world we indirectly take advantage of peasants in the third world.



Subotai
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 24 Sep 2010
Age: 39
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,036
Location: 日本

11 Aug 2011, 12:05 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
Subotai wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Subotai wrote:
Corruption is an inevitability. It's interesting how abusing specific systems becomes a science on it's own, our current system however is the best we've seen for combating corruption.

I think it goes beyond just human nature to the nature of life itself and evolutionary drive.


Really? are you honestly suggesting the U.S has the best system for combating corruption.....if that is true why is there so much freaking coruption and why is our government owned by corporate america?


I'm not saying our system isn't corrupt, but it was intricately designed to hinder total corruption.
Look at the not so distant past, look at monarchies and un-unionized factories.


But we pretty much have total corruption, and many people are too distracted by unimportant things to even notice.


Not total, not yet.
But as with any system we are moving in that direction.



androbot2084
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 23 Mar 2011
Age: 65
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,447

11 Aug 2011, 12:09 pm

Anyway Ruveyn talks about how socialism would be the ideal political system for heaven but the religious right teaches that capitalism is the political ideal system of heaven.



Awesomelyglorious
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 17 Dec 2005
Gender: Male
Posts: 13,157
Location: Omnipresent

11 Aug 2011, 12:14 pm

I am going to agree with the crowd that says that the OP's use of the term "socialism" is just confusing. Both meanings compete for the same category, which is a bit problematic, especially given that the traditional use of the term is a LOT better defined and clearer. I mean, there is really no definition for the broad sense of "socialism" used by the OP, and someone, if they truly desired, could even say that the US is an example of a socialist country that they like, and while people might fuddle about and object, they'd have no real grounds to object to such a claim because of issues with poor definition.



Subotai
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 24 Sep 2010
Age: 39
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,036
Location: 日本

11 Aug 2011, 12:18 pm

androbot2084 wrote:
Anyway Ruveyn talks about how socialism would be the ideal political system for heaven but the religious right teaches that capitalism is the political ideal system of heaven.


Capitalism is the system where the meek certainly do not inherit the earth :lol:



Inuyasha
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Jan 2009
Age: 43
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,745

11 Aug 2011, 12:18 pm

Socialism looks good in theory and on paper, but as we've seen over and over again, Socialism does not work in real life.

You tout your free healthcare, got news for you, it wasn't free, and your government was spending money it didn't have in order to provide it (which is what Obama is trying to do to the US). What you were living in is a giant ponzie scheme that is now collapsing around your ears (if you live in Europe) that makes Bernie Madoff look honest.



Subotai
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 24 Sep 2010
Age: 39
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,036
Location: 日本

11 Aug 2011, 12:21 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
Socialism looks good in theory and on paper, but as we've seen over and over again, Socialism does not work in real life.

You tout your free healthcare, got news for you, it wasn't free, and your government was spending money it didn't have in order to provide it (which is what Obama is trying to do to the US). What you were living in is a giant ponzie scheme that is now collapsing around your ears (if you live in Europe) that makes Bernie Madoff look honest.


I agree that socialism would never work, but here in Canada our health care works just fine.



Sweetleaf
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 Jan 2011
Age: 36
Gender: Female
Posts: 35,278
Location: Somewhere in Colorado

11 Aug 2011, 12:25 pm

Subotai wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:

Well yes that is why I pointed out....such a system can be abused, so there would have to be a way to prevent that sort of abuse.


Not can be, but will be. And there is no way of preventing it short of changing human nature. Which cannot happen in any reasonable length of time. Evolution operates over periods of tens of thousands of years or more. As long as humans are what they are, socialism is a guaranteed failure.

Humans are the smartest, baddest apes in The Primate House. Live with it.

ruveyn


And what are humans......a bunch of selfish pigs that should never be responsible for how they treat others? I think some of this 'human nature' has been conditioned and can be unconditioned. Also I realise everyone has to take care of their own needs before they do much to help anyone else......but that is no need for society and the media to encourage a divided culture where people fight over the stupidest things...and are willing to step on as many people as they can in an attempt to get to the top.

And I have lived with it.....as a child I was constantly picked on, made fun of and bullied by students and teachers, at home I was not allowed to be upset about my parents fighting all the time or I would get yelled at for making things worse. and I have learned in my adult life I will probably be spit on due to my financial situation and some of my mental problems that interfere with my functioning. But I guess that is ok.........I should just get over it, if I can't toughen the hell up and start stepping on some toes myself I should just shut up and get out of the way.


I think all of us are capable of being corrupted by power. Our nature is to strive for more than we have.

As citizens of the first world we indirectly take advantage of peasants in the third world.


Well yes all of us our, but that does not make it right or mean it is what we should base society on.



Sweetleaf
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 Jan 2011
Age: 36
Gender: Female
Posts: 35,278
Location: Somewhere in Colorado

11 Aug 2011, 12:26 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
Socialism looks good in theory and on paper, but as we've seen over and over again, Socialism does not work in real life.

You tout your free healthcare, got news for you, it wasn't free, and your government was spending money it didn't have in order to provide it (which is what Obama is trying to do to the US). What you were living in is a giant ponzie scheme that is now collapsing around your ears (if you live in Europe) that makes Bernie Madoff look honest.


Capitalism does not work in real life either, so I guess the only option is to combine them.



Inuyasha
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Jan 2009
Age: 43
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,745

11 Aug 2011, 12:27 pm

Subotai wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
Socialism looks good in theory and on paper, but as we've seen over and over again, Socialism does not work in real life.

You tout your free healthcare, got news for you, it wasn't free, and your government was spending money it didn't have in order to provide it (which is what Obama is trying to do to the US). What you were living in is a giant ponzie scheme that is now collapsing around your ears (if you live in Europe) that makes Bernie Madoff look honest.


I agree that socialism would never work, but here in Canada our health care works just fine.


No, it doesn't, because your entitlement system is going broke too, you aren't in the dire situation that we see in Europe yet, however you're heading to end up with the same problems we see in Europe, just like the US will end up in that same dire straights if Obama and the Democrats get their way.



androbot2084
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 23 Mar 2011
Age: 65
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,447

11 Aug 2011, 12:28 pm

Even though the religious right teaches creationism nevertheless they love social Darwinism which means survival of the fittest.



Sweetleaf
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 Jan 2011
Age: 36
Gender: Female
Posts: 35,278
Location: Somewhere in Colorado

11 Aug 2011, 12:30 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
Subotai wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
Socialism looks good in theory and on paper, but as we've seen over and over again, Socialism does not work in real life.

You tout your free healthcare, got news for you, it wasn't free, and your government was spending money it didn't have in order to provide it (which is what Obama is trying to do to the US). What you were living in is a giant ponzie scheme that is now collapsing around your ears (if you live in Europe) that makes Bernie Madoff look honest.


I agree that socialism would never work, but here in Canada our health care works just fine.


No, it doesn't, because your entitlement system is going broke too, you aren't in the dire situation that we see in Europe yet, however you're heading to end up with the same problems we see in Europe, just like the US will end up in that same dire straights if Obama and the Democrats get their way.


Oh no people are entitled to basic things freaking deal with it, and Obama and the Democrats are just as bad as the Republicans and whatever canidate they pull out of their ass.