Is Judaism a religion AND an ethnicity?

Page 4 of 4 [ 64 posts ] Go to page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4

Previous topic | Next topic

Kraichgauer
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 49,239
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.

22 Nov 2011, 2:37 am

ruveyn wrote:

Telekon wrote:

That's not what Jewish law says. I'm Jewish because my mother is Jewish, not because of something she taught me.

I am talking facts and you are invoking nonsense. You are as Jewish as you act. If you placed with a Catholic family shortly after birth from your Jewish mother you would grow up to be a Catholic or an ex-Catholic as the case may be.

ruveyn

Absolutely true. As I've already observed, who you think you are determines your identity much more than your DNA does.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

Telekon
Velociraptor

Joined: 16 Feb 2011
Age: 38
Gender: Male
Posts: 411

22 Nov 2011, 6:13 am

ruveyn wrote:

You are confusing personal opinion with facts, while calling actual facts (i.e. Jewish law) nonsense. Nowhere in the Torah does it state that a Jew is identified by the way he acts. What does it mean to act Jewish anyway? If a gentile kvetches and eats bagels he's a Jew?

If I was raised in a Catholic home the Jewish community would still regard me as a Jew because they follow the Torah and not some guy's personal opinion. Can you point to a source in Jewish tradition that corroborates what you've said? Otherwise there's no reason to take you seriously.

donnie_darko
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 26 Nov 2009
Age: 35
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,981

23 Nov 2011, 3:18 pm

It's an ethnicity, but it's not necessarily one with true basis in genetics. There have been studies on DNA that show Jews are genetically descended from Middle Easterners no matter where they come from, but I'm not sure how much I believe them.

Really though ethnicity has in my opinion always been about language and culture and not so much actual common descent.

donnie_darko
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 26 Nov 2009
Age: 35
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,981

23 Nov 2011, 3:25 pm

visagrunt wrote:

The problem I see with the OP question is that there is no framework around "ethnicity." If ethnicity is limited to narrow concepts of skin colour, then of course we aren't--but the question is inherently stupid. But if ethnicity is rooted in cultural diversity, then we most certainly have all the hallmarks of a distinct ethnic group.

Ethnicity, outside of the United States, has never been about skin color. It is in my opinion primarily about language, then many other secondary characteristics.

The last thing you said though doesn't make sense. "Rooted in cultural diversity". An ethnic group isn't related by being made up of a lot of diversity/differences, but rather by people who share a great degree of cultural similarities.

Kraichgauer
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 49,239
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.

23 Nov 2011, 4:18 pm

donnie_darko wrote:

visagrunt wrote:

Ethnicity for me implies related phenogroups based on common or similar genetics. Culture and language is something different, in that it determines one's identity much more strongly than DNA.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

Dione
Pileated woodpecker

Joined: 23 Jan 2011
Gender: Female
Posts: 194
Location: A house in a galaxy far far away

23 Nov 2011, 4:49 pm

I think it's both. It's like Joseph Campbell said, "We are born Jewish but choose to be Christian."
I am of German Jewish descent, although my family has not practiced since World War II. There were occasions where I would wish people who ordered challah on Thursday or Friday a good Shabbat and people would ask me if they saw me at temple because I looked familiar. These people thought I was Jewish, of which I am proud because of the adversity Jewish people have overcome for thousands of years.
Wikipedia writes, "Jews are an ethnoreligious group and include those born Jewish and converts to Judaism."

Kraichgauer
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 49,239
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.

23 Nov 2011, 5:15 pm

Dione wrote:

My maternal Grandmother's family were German Lutherans for as far back as their collective memory went, and yet their family name was Abramovske. Apparently, I have a little Jewish ancestry, though my identity is thoroughly German-American Lutheran. For me, that obviously Jewish sounding surname is a curiosity, but little else.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

imbatshitcrazy
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 29 Jun 2010
Age: 31
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,492

23 Nov 2011, 9:06 pm

my question is: why can't people who were born to 2 religiously based jews simply declare him/herself and atheist and not be refered to as a jew? i honestly don't care what some 5000 year old book says what i am or not! it also says that a burning bush told a person to free slaves. according to most of your logic, a person born to a catholic family would still be a catholic because his/her parents are catholic! catholicism,islam, or any religions aren't in your blood, DNA, or any actual body part. it is spirituality. if i don't believe in it, than i am not a part of it. if i, or other people, want to leave, who are you to try and stop me? i have every right to leave as much as other people are allowed to enter. it is not an exclusive club in which you are forced to stay. it is a choice to believe in a specific version of an all powerful deity or not.

Last edited by imbatshitcrazy on 25 Nov 2011, 11:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

mikecartwright
Deinonychus

Joined: 15 Sep 2007
Age: 38
Gender: Male
Posts: 398

23 Nov 2011, 9:30 pm

Judaism is both.

cw10
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 23 May 2011
Age: 52
Gender: Male
Posts: 973

25 Nov 2011, 4:43 pm

Judaism isn't an ethnicity. However Judaism is both a religion AND a nation.

ruveyn
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Age: 88
Gender: Male
Posts: 31,502
Location: New Jersey

25 Nov 2011, 8:46 pm

cw10 wrote:

Judaism isn't an ethnicity. However Judaism is both a religion AND a nation.

And a culture.

ruveyn

imbatshitcrazy
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 29 Jun 2010
Age: 31
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,492

05 Dec 2011, 9:45 pm

pandabear wrote:

In that old movie Fiddler on the Roof, one of Tevye's daughter's runs off and marries a Christian. Her own family then shuns her and rejects her. That is where I got the idea that a Jew could lose his or her Jewish identity by marrying a Christian.

On the other hand, the daughter's children would still be considered Jewish, as Jewishness is regarded as inherited from the mother. Jewish identity must then reside in the mitochondrial DNA.

how can you get rid of something that is apparently in YOUR DNA and/or BLOOD by converting to another religion?! that makes no sense!

Kraichgauer wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

imbatshitcrazy wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

imbatshitcrazy wrote:

but the jewish culture consists of people who actually believe in the god/ jewish religion, and people who might not believe in the god/religion but still want to be a part of the services, holidays, etc. just because they get that warm feeling inside. that doesn't make judaism part of your DNA. in fact, many people in every religion do the exact same thing!

Indicating that a culture, rather than a theology is at the center.

ok, but it still isn't an ethnicity

Ethnicity is what makes a group of humans particular and identifiable. Culture is the better part of that.

In addition to a shared history and values there is environment. These together make a people what they are.

It is not a matter of biological inheritance and it never was.

ruveyn

Agreed. My maternal Grandmother's people had apparently been Jewish in the distant past, but regarded themselves as nothing but Prussian Lutherans. That was their identity, and their faith. Maybe the only inkling of a Hebraic past, beside their name of Abramovske, was that her family never seemed to have held any Antisemitic bias.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

Kraichgauer, do you honestly consider yourself jewish?

imbatshitcrazy
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 29 Jun 2010
Age: 31
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,492

05 Dec 2011, 9:48 pm

"Jews, of course, are not a race, because any person, irrespective of "blood" or any other biological feature, can become a Jew by conversion."

http://www.holocaustchronicle.org/staticpages/43.html

phil777
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 20 May 2008
Age: 38
Gender: Male
Posts: 4,825
Location: Montreal, Québec

05 Dec 2011, 10:01 pm

^ That's why I voted number 2. <.<

An amusing research I should do is check how the American census deals with this issue. :chin:

Kraichgauer
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 49,239
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.

05 Dec 2011, 10:21 pm

imbatshitcrazy wrote:

pandabear wrote:

how can you get rid of something that is apparently in YOUR DNA and/or BLOOD by converting to another religion?! that makes no sense!

Kraichgauer wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

imbatshitcrazy wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

imbatshitcrazy wrote:

Indicating that a culture, rather than a theology is at the center.

ok, but it still isn't an ethnicity

Kraichgauer, do you honestly consider yourself jewish?

Absolutely not (but as Jerry Seinfeld said, "Not that there's anything wrong with it."); I'm an American of German Lutheran extraction.
I hope I didn't give the impression that I considered myself Jewish in any way.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

ruveyn
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Age: 88
Gender: Male
Posts: 31,502
Location: New Jersey

05 Dec 2011, 11:23 pm

pandabear wrote:

imbatshitcrazy wrote:

is there such thing as a "Jewish Gene"?

At least metaphorically, all Jews are descendents of Sarai.

Mythical descent. Just like the Emperor of Japan is the descendant of the god Ameratasu.

ruveyn

Page 4 of 4 [ 64 posts ] Go to page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4

Jump to:

Is Judaism a religion AND an ethnicity? Post Reply New Topic

Is Judaism a religion AND an ethnicity?