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Is it antichristian to battle antihomosexual discrimination?

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visagrunt
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29 Dec 2011, 1:28 pm

Robdemanc wrote:
That sounds fine but in Britain that would clash with the Equal Opportunities and Discrimination laws.


I think not. Have any of the Roman Catholic dioceses been successfully enjoined to take on female priests? Have divorced Roman Catholics successfully sued to obtain the right to be married within the Catholic church? The law of England and Wales (and the law of Scotland and of Northern Ireland) have left the churches free to operate free from constraint. It is only when churches seek to move into the public sphere--for example in operating schools or hospitals--that they subject themselves to civil law.


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29 Dec 2011, 2:46 pm

Someone posted a link earlier to the teachings of various religions on homosexuality. Being Catholic, I'll post the position:

The Roman Catholic Church considers human sexual behavior that it sees as properly expressed to be sacred, almost sacramental in nature. Sexual acts other than "unprotected" vaginal intercourse within a heterosexual marriage are considered sinful because in the Church's understanding, sexual acts, by their nature, are meant to be both unitive and procreative (mirroring God's inner Trinitarian life). The Church also understands the complementarity of the sexes to be part of God's plan. Same-gender sexual acts are incompatible with this framework:

"[H]omosexual acts are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved."[52]

These teachings are, of course, not limited to the issue of homosexuality, but is also the general background for the Catholic prohibitions against, for example, fornication, contraception, pornography, consummated anal sex, consummated oral sex, masturbation, and all other forms of non-coital sex.

To be sure, the Church has clearly stated that homosexual desires or attractions themselves are not necessarily sinful. They are said to be "disordered" in the sense that they tempt one to do something that is sinful (i.e., the homosexual act), but temptations beyond one's control are not considered sinful in and of themselves. For this reason, while the Church does oppose same-gender sexual acts, it also officially urges respect and love for those who do experience same-sex attractions and isn't opposed to the homosexual orientation, thus the Catholic Church is also opposed to persecutions and violence against the LGBT community:

"The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition."

The Church considers the call to chastity universal to all persons according to their state in life. For those who do experience gay sexual attractions, the Catholic Church offers the following counsel:

"Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection."



Robdemanc
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29 Dec 2011, 3:04 pm

Bataar wrote:
Someone posted a link earlier to the teachings of various religions on homosexuality. Being Catholic, I'll post the position:

The Roman Catholic Church considers human sexual behavior that it sees as properly expressed to be sacred, almost sacramental in nature. Sexual acts other than "unprotected" vaginal intercourse within a heterosexual marriage are considered sinful because in the Church's understanding, sexual acts, by their nature, are meant to be both unitive and procreative (mirroring God's inner Trinitarian life). The Church also understands the complementarity of the sexes to be part of God's plan. Same-gender sexual acts are incompatible with this framework:

"[H]omosexual acts are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved."[52]

These teachings are, of course, not limited to the issue of homosexuality, but is also the general background for the Catholic prohibitions against, for example, fornication, contraception, pornography, consummated anal sex, consummated oral sex, masturbation, and all other forms of non-coital sex.

To be sure, the Church has clearly stated that homosexual desires or attractions themselves are not necessarily sinful. They are said to be "disordered" in the sense that they tempt one to do something that is sinful (i.e., the homosexual act), but temptations beyond one's control are not considered sinful in and of themselves. For this reason, while the Church does oppose same-gender sexual acts, it also officially urges respect and love for those who do experience same-sex attractions and isn't opposed to the homosexual orientation, thus the Catholic Church is also opposed to persecutions and violence against the LGBT community:

"The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition."

The Church considers the call to chastity universal to all persons according to their state in life. For those who do experience gay sexual attractions, the Catholic Church offers the following counsel:

"Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection."


What is the catholic churches opinion on child molestation? Is it to remain silent?



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29 Dec 2011, 3:24 pm

Bataar wrote:
Someone posted a link earlier to the teachings of various religions on homosexuality. Being Catholic, I'll post the position:

The Roman Catholic Church considers human sexual behavior that it sees as properly expressed to be sacred, almost sacramental in nature. Sexual acts other than "unprotected" vaginal intercourse within a heterosexual marriage are considered sinful because in the Church's understanding, sexual acts, by their nature, are meant to be both unitive and procreative (mirroring God's inner Trinitarian life). The Church also understands the complementarity of the sexes to be part of God's plan. Same-gender sexual acts are incompatible with this framework:

"[H]omosexual acts are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved."[52]

These teachings are, of course, not limited to the issue of homosexuality, but is also the general background for the Catholic prohibitions against, for example, fornication, contraception, pornography, consummated anal sex, consummated oral sex, masturbation, and all other forms of non-coital sex.

To be sure, the Church has clearly stated that homosexual desires or attractions themselves are not necessarily sinful. They are said to be "disordered" in the sense that they tempt one to do something that is sinful (i.e., the homosexual act), but temptations beyond one's control are not considered sinful in and of themselves. For this reason, while the Church does oppose same-gender sexual acts, it also officially urges respect and love for those who do experience same-sex attractions and isn't opposed to the homosexual orientation, thus the Catholic Church is also opposed to persecutions and violence against the LGBT community:

"The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition."

The Church considers the call to chastity universal to all persons according to their state in life. For those who do experience gay sexual attractions, the Catholic Church offers the following counsel:

"Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection."


Nothing but vaginal sex for anyone - - ever?
Be killjoys for gays and straights, won't yuh.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



WilliamWDelaney
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29 Dec 2011, 3:38 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
Bataar wrote:
Someone posted a link earlier to the teachings of various religions on homosexuality. Being Catholic, I'll post the position:

The Roman Catholic Church considers human sexual behavior that it sees as properly expressed to be sacred, almost sacramental in nature. Sexual acts other than "unprotected" vaginal intercourse within a heterosexual marriage are considered sinful because in the Church's understanding, sexual acts, by their nature, are meant to be both unitive and procreative (mirroring God's inner Trinitarian life). The Church also understands the complementarity of the sexes to be part of God's plan. Same-gender sexual acts are incompatible with this framework:

"[H]omosexual acts are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved."[52]

These teachings are, of course, not limited to the issue of homosexuality, but is also the general background for the Catholic prohibitions against, for example, fornication, contraception, pornography, consummated anal sex, consummated oral sex, masturbation, and all other forms of non-coital sex.

To be sure, the Church has clearly stated that homosexual desires or attractions themselves are not necessarily sinful. They are said to be "disordered" in the sense that they tempt one to do something that is sinful (i.e., the homosexual act), but temptations beyond one's control are not considered sinful in and of themselves. For this reason, while the Church does oppose same-gender sexual acts, it also officially urges respect and love for those who do experience same-sex attractions and isn't opposed to the homosexual orientation, thus the Catholic Church is also opposed to persecutions and violence against the LGBT community:

"The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition."

The Church considers the call to chastity universal to all persons according to their state in life. For those who do experience gay sexual attractions, the Catholic Church offers the following counsel:

"Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection."


Nothing but vaginal sex for anyone - - ever?
Be killjoys for gays and straights, won't yuh.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
Since there are at least three discussions on this self-same subject running presently, I think that it would be prudent for me to start using material from the others to reply to points raised within the one:

WilliamWDelaney wrote:
pandabear wrote:
I thought that homosexual men primarily boned each other up the bum. In what activities do they usually engage?
Yay! Someone asked!

It's a lot simpler than you would think. Consider how you behave with your own sexual partners. Do you really think about what you are doing? Usually, you don't. Gay men usually engage in general love-making, and they stimulate each other by any means that are convenient and effective. Like you and your partner, gay men can have insecurities about whether they are really satisfying their partner. Like you and your partner, they occasionally--although not necessarily often--enjoy experimenting with new ideas, some good and some not so good. Therefore, the answer to your question is simple at its root, but it would be very difficult to speak for all or even a significant minority of gay men as far as the details. All of them will have their own way of trying to keep their partner happy, just like you and your partners have a unique sort of sex life. In the end, all you really care about is making the person you love feel good.

As far as why many gay men don't even make much effort at anal sex, I'll answer that pretty simply: it is difficult, awkward and occasionally painful. Gay men enjoy using hands, feet and objects to stimulate that area externally, but they are often as uneasy as anyone else about "burying the bone in the dirt." The ones who do would only engage in what is called "bare-backing" with a partner they have known for a long time and know, without much doubt, to be "clean." To have any real likelihood of getting into that, you would almost have to be either more than a little tipsy or on some kind of drugs. Normally, if you try something like that, you're doing it for the same reason any heterosexual couple may try something different: you like making your partner happy, and you are willing to do weird things if it might have that effect to do so.

Therefore, the question of, "if you don't do each other in the bum, what do you do?" is answerable simply with, "whatever brings satisfaction to our love-life." The details are up to the individual's imagination and ingenuity!


Gay people do not necessarily have "butt sex" with each other. In fact, love life between queers is not especially different from love life between straight opposite sex partners. Straight people just have it a little better narrowed down as to how to get the desired effect, whereas those bereft of such resources have to be a bit more imaginative.



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29 Dec 2011, 3:53 pm

WilliamWDelaney wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Bataar wrote:
Someone posted a link earlier to the teachings of various religions on homosexuality. Being Catholic, I'll post the position:

The Roman Catholic Church considers human sexual behavior that it sees as properly expressed to be sacred, almost sacramental in nature. Sexual acts other than "unprotected" vaginal intercourse within a heterosexual marriage are considered sinful because in the Church's understanding, sexual acts, by their nature, are meant to be both unitive and procreative (mirroring God's inner Trinitarian life). The Church also understands the complementarity of the sexes to be part of God's plan. Same-gender sexual acts are incompatible with this framework:

"[H]omosexual acts are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved."[52]

These teachings are, of course, not limited to the issue of homosexuality, but is also the general background for the Catholic prohibitions against, for example, fornication, contraception, pornography, consummated anal sex, consummated oral sex, masturbation, and all other forms of non-coital sex.

To be sure, the Church has clearly stated that homosexual desires or attractions themselves are not necessarily sinful. They are said to be "disordered" in the sense that they tempt one to do something that is sinful (i.e., the homosexual act), but temptations beyond one's control are not considered sinful in and of themselves. For this reason, while the Church does oppose same-gender sexual acts, it also officially urges respect and love for those who do experience same-sex attractions and isn't opposed to the homosexual orientation, thus the Catholic Church is also opposed to persecutions and violence against the LGBT community:

"The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition."

The Church considers the call to chastity universal to all persons according to their state in life. For those who do experience gay sexual attractions, the Catholic Church offers the following counsel:

"Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection."


Nothing but vaginal sex for anyone - - ever?
Be killjoys for gays and straights, won't yuh.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
Since there are at least three discussions on this self-same subject running presently, I think that it would be prudent for me to start using material from the others to reply to points raised within the one:

WilliamWDelaney wrote:
pandabear wrote:
I thought that homosexual men primarily boned each other up the bum. In what activities do they usually engage?
Yay! Someone asked!

It's a lot simpler than you would think. Consider how you behave with your own sexual partners. Do you really think about what you are doing? Usually, you don't. Gay men usually engage in general love-making, and they stimulate each other by any means that are convenient and effective. Like you and your partner, gay men can have insecurities about whether they are really satisfying their partner. Like you and your partner, they occasionally--although not necessarily often--enjoy experimenting with new ideas, some good and some not so good. Therefore, the answer to your question is simple at its root, but it would be very difficult to speak for all or even a significant minority of gay men as far as the details. All of them will have their own way of trying to keep their partner happy, just like you and your partners have a unique sort of sex life. In the end, all you really care about is making the person you love feel good.

As far as why many gay men don't even make much effort at anal sex, I'll answer that pretty simply: it is difficult, awkward and occasionally painful. Gay men enjoy using hands, feet and objects to stimulate that area externally, but they are often as uneasy as anyone else about "burying the bone in the dirt." The ones who do would only engage in what is called "bare-backing" with a partner they have known for a long time and know, without much doubt, to be "clean." To have any real likelihood of getting into that, you would almost have to be either more than a little tipsy or on some kind of drugs. Normally, if you try something like that, you're doing it for the same reason any heterosexual couple may try something different: you like making your partner happy, and you are willing to do weird things if it might have that effect to do so.

Therefore, the question of, "if you don't do each other in the bum, what do you do?" is answerable simply with, "whatever brings satisfaction to our love-life." The details are up to the individual's imagination and ingenuity!


Gay people do not necessarily have "butt sex" with each other. In fact, love life between queers is not especially different from love life between straight opposite sex partners. Straight people just have it a little better narrowed down as to how to get the desired effect, whereas those bereft of such resources have to be a bit more imaginative.


I have to concede - I know nothing about gay sex except for what I've heard from straights, which is that gay men regularly engage in anal intercourse. And I have a gay friend who I've known for most of my life, so I hardly should be using that as an excuse.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



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29 Dec 2011, 3:58 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
Bataar wrote:
Someone posted a link earlier to the teachings of various religions on homosexuality. Being Catholic, I'll post the position:

The Roman Catholic Church considers human sexual behavior that it sees as properly expressed to be sacred, almost sacramental in nature. Sexual acts other than "unprotected" vaginal intercourse within a heterosexual marriage are considered sinful because in the Church's understanding, sexual acts, by their nature, are meant to be both unitive and procreative (mirroring God's inner Trinitarian life). The Church also understands the complementarity of the sexes to be part of God's plan. Same-gender sexual acts are incompatible with this framework:

"[H]omosexual acts are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved."[52]

These teachings are, of course, not limited to the issue of homosexuality, but is also the general background for the Catholic prohibitions against, for example, fornication, contraception, pornography, consummated anal sex, consummated oral sex, masturbation, and all other forms of non-coital sex.

To be sure, the Church has clearly stated that homosexual desires or attractions themselves are not necessarily sinful. They are said to be "disordered" in the sense that they tempt one to do something that is sinful (i.e., the homosexual act), but temptations beyond one's control are not considered sinful in and of themselves. For this reason, while the Church does oppose same-gender sexual acts, it also officially urges respect and love for those who do experience same-sex attractions and isn't opposed to the homosexual orientation, thus the Catholic Church is also opposed to persecutions and violence against the LGBT community:

"The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition."

The Church considers the call to chastity universal to all persons according to their state in life. For those who do experience gay sexual attractions, the Catholic Church offers the following counsel:

"Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection."


Nothing but vaginal sex for anyone - - ever?
Be killjoys for gays and straights, won't yuh.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

There's a little more to it. A married couple can pretty much do anything, as long as it ends with ejaculation in the vagina. Othwerwise, the act wouldn't be procreative.



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29 Dec 2011, 4:57 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
WilliamWDelaney wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Bataar wrote:
Someone posted a link earlier to the teachings of various religions on homosexuality. Being Catholic, I'll post the position:

The Roman Catholic Church considers human sexual behavior that it sees as properly expressed to be sacred, almost sacramental in nature. Sexual acts other than "unprotected" vaginal intercourse within a heterosexual marriage are considered sinful because in the Church's understanding, sexual acts, by their nature, are meant to be both unitive and procreative (mirroring God's inner Trinitarian life). The Church also understands the complementarity of the sexes to be part of God's plan. Same-gender sexual acts are incompatible with this framework:

"[H]omosexual acts are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved."[52]

These teachings are, of course, not limited to the issue of homosexuality, but is also the general background for the Catholic prohibitions against, for example, fornication, contraception, pornography, consummated anal sex, consummated oral sex, masturbation, and all other forms of non-coital sex.

To be sure, the Church has clearly stated that homosexual desires or attractions themselves are not necessarily sinful. They are said to be "disordered" in the sense that they tempt one to do something that is sinful (i.e., the homosexual act), but temptations beyond one's control are not considered sinful in and of themselves. For this reason, while the Church does oppose same-gender sexual acts, it also officially urges respect and love for those who do experience same-sex attractions and isn't opposed to the homosexual orientation, thus the Catholic Church is also opposed to persecutions and violence against the LGBT community:

"The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition."

The Church considers the call to chastity universal to all persons according to their state in life. For those who do experience gay sexual attractions, the Catholic Church offers the following counsel:

"Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection."


Nothing but vaginal sex for anyone - - ever?
Be killjoys for gays and straights, won't yuh.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
Since there are at least three discussions on this self-same subject running presently, I think that it would be prudent for me to start using material from the others to reply to points raised within the one:

WilliamWDelaney wrote:
pandabear wrote:
I thought that homosexual men primarily boned each other up the bum. In what activities do they usually engage?
Yay! Someone asked!

It's a lot simpler than you would think. Consider how you behave with your own sexual partners. Do you really think about what you are doing? Usually, you don't. Gay men usually engage in general love-making, and they stimulate each other by any means that are convenient and effective. Like you and your partner, gay men can have insecurities about whether they are really satisfying their partner. Like you and your partner, they occasionally--although not necessarily often--enjoy experimenting with new ideas, some good and some not so good. Therefore, the answer to your question is simple at its root, but it would be very difficult to speak for all or even a significant minority of gay men as far as the details. All of them will have their own way of trying to keep their partner happy, just like you and your partners have a unique sort of sex life. In the end, all you really care about is making the person you love feel good.

As far as why many gay men don't even make much effort at anal sex, I'll answer that pretty simply: it is difficult, awkward and occasionally painful. Gay men enjoy using hands, feet and objects to stimulate that area externally, but they are often as uneasy as anyone else about "burying the bone in the dirt." The ones who do would only engage in what is called "bare-backing" with a partner they have known for a long time and know, without much doubt, to be "clean." To have any real likelihood of getting into that, you would almost have to be either more than a little tipsy or on some kind of drugs. Normally, if you try something like that, you're doing it for the same reason any heterosexual couple may try something different: you like making your partner happy, and you are willing to do weird things if it might have that effect to do so.

Therefore, the question of, "if you don't do each other in the bum, what do you do?" is answerable simply with, "whatever brings satisfaction to our love-life." The details are up to the individual's imagination and ingenuity!


Gay people do not necessarily have "butt sex" with each other. In fact, love life between queers is not especially different from love life between straight opposite sex partners. Straight people just have it a little better narrowed down as to how to get the desired effect, whereas those bereft of such resources have to be a bit more imaginative.


I have to concede - I know nothing about gay sex except for what I've heard from straights, which is that gay men regularly engage in anal intercourse. And I have a gay friend who I've known for most of my life, so I hardly should be using that as an excuse.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
Well, it's hard for most people to talk objectively about their sex lives, gay or straight. I think that my explanation is the simplest, though. You know that, with your sexual partners, you try just about anything to try to make your sex lives exciting and interesting, especially early on in a relationship. So do gay people. Gay people are just as creative and just as silly as you can be be, and that's just how it is. The only hard part, if you have never tried anal sex, is getting across just how awkward it can be: initiating it can completely destroy a mood, and it's really quite hard to remain aroused with a lot of pressure on that area. Because I'm fairly "well-hung" but also...soft...I've always had some difficulty in this area, myself. Ultimately, the beginning and end of a gay man's sex life is very similar to anyone else's: how can I make him/her feel good?

If you're really interested in understanding how Levitical law is applicable in your life, just consider the context in which certain statements appear. Most of the "commandments" in Leviticus and such bear a resemblance to modern health codes, and this actually makes sense considering that the ancient priesthood often served as doctors in their communities. In Numbers, there is even a section that appears to be instructions on the administration of an abortefacient. Your religion comes from a rich cultural heritage, and these ancient minds were really a lot more sophisticated than most people give them credit for...especially naive believers. My opinion is that the best way to apply Leviticus is to follow their example in spirit: devote yourself to helping others to the best of your limited ability, and try to show respect for the powers that are ultimately behind everything, when you can.

I think it's doubtful that the writers of Leviticus intended to place unnecessary and clearly counter-productive obstructions and obstacles in the lives of a mostly harmless minority group...but that's just my own assessment of their character and intentions.



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29 Dec 2011, 6:21 pm

Quote:
Is it antichristian to battle antihomosexual discrimination?


No. Jesus said "Love thy neighbor" not "unless they are gay".


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30 Dec 2011, 2:28 pm

TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:
Quote:
Is it antichristian to battle antihomosexual discrimination?


No. Jesus said "Love thy neighbor" not "unless they are gay".

This I agree with. As the Church teaches, they are to be treated with love and respect, the same as anyone else. I know some "christians" act out of hatred to things like homosexuality, but for probably most of us, it's out of love that we try to show the truth. The homosexual act (not being homosexual in and of itself) is a serious sin. Only God knows the state of one's soul at the time of their death but we believe that people in the state of serious, unrepented sin will likely not enter heaven and if they don't enter heaven, we believe there's only one other place for them and we don't want anyone to go there.



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30 Dec 2011, 4:01 pm

Here is a very simple solution to this whole problem.

If you are against gay sex, do not have it.

That's kind of a no brainer there.


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30 Dec 2011, 11:01 pm

Vexcalibur wrote:
So, a question for WP' self-acclaimed Christians: Do you consider attempts to reduce discrimination against homosexual people to be anti-Christian attacks?


No.

Great blog piece on this general area of discussion: http://www.danoah.com/2011/11/im-christ ... e-gay.html

Love the way TeaEarlGrey summarized it, as well.

(I'm checking my post over and over because all these double / triple negatives are easy to trip over)


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30 Dec 2011, 11:08 pm

Vexcalibur wrote:
OliveOilMom wrote:
dmm1010 wrote:
"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them" (Leviticus 20:13).

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled" (Matthew 5:17-18).

I think Christians are making excuses again.


Yeah, but two guys don't do it the same way that a man and a woman do it.

I'm Catholic and I have no problem at all with gay folks. In fact, I dearly love gay men.

I think it's only antichristian to be against discrimination if you are a member of Westboro Baptist Church ;-)

One of the best and most devout Catholics I know is a gay man. I know a nun who is a lesbian, she's celibate so why would it matter to anyone what her orientation is?

It does to the vatican.

Really, I know most people that call themselves Catholic are merely cultural catholics that have nothing to do with their religion as in at all, but that doesn't mean the Vatican itself is not full of bigots. (Pedophile apologist bigots as well)


My understanding is that as long as they are not practicing their sexuality, it does NOT matter to the Vatican. Their official releases have said as much. There is no sin in orientation. The only potential for sin comes from what is done with it.


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Last edited by DW_a_mom on 30 Dec 2011, 11:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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30 Dec 2011, 11:10 pm

puddingmouse wrote:
Vexcalibur wrote:

Really, I know most people that call themselves Catholic are merely cultural catholics that have nothing to do with their religion as in at all, but that doesn't mean the Vatican itself is not full of bigots. (Pedophile apologist bigots as well)


I've noticed that people seem to assume that Catholicism is tolerant because individual Catholics are tolerant. I've always been mystified by people's inability to separate the two.


And you are assuming the opposite, also theologically incorrect.


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30 Dec 2011, 11:14 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
Bataar wrote:
Someone posted a link earlier to the teachings of various religions on homosexuality. Being Catholic, I'll post the position:

The Roman Catholic Church considers human sexual behavior that it sees as properly expressed to be sacred, almost sacramental in nature. Sexual acts other than "unprotected" vaginal intercourse within a heterosexual marriage are considered sinful because in the Church's understanding, sexual acts, by their nature, are meant to be both unitive and procreative (mirroring God's inner Trinitarian life). The Church also understands the complementarity of the sexes to be part of God's plan. Same-gender sexual acts are incompatible with this framework:

"[H]omosexual acts are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved."[52]

These teachings are, of course, not limited to the issue of homosexuality, but is also the general background for the Catholic prohibitions against, for example, fornication, contraception, pornography, consummated anal sex, consummated oral sex, masturbation, and all other forms of non-coital sex.

To be sure, the Church has clearly stated that homosexual desires or attractions themselves are not necessarily sinful. They are said to be "disordered" in the sense that they tempt one to do something that is sinful (i.e., the homosexual act), but temptations beyond one's control are not considered sinful in and of themselves. For this reason, while the Church does oppose same-gender sexual acts, it also officially urges respect and love for those who do experience same-sex attractions and isn't opposed to the homosexual orientation, thus the Catholic Church is also opposed to persecutions and violence against the LGBT community:

"The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition."

The Church considers the call to chastity universal to all persons according to their state in life. For those who do experience gay sexual attractions, the Catholic Church offers the following counsel:

"Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection."


Nothing but vaginal sex for anyone - - ever?
Be killjoys for gays and straights, won't yuh.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



And without birth control, no less ;)

You have to understand that they are teaching a standard they think people should aspire to, not one that people will burn in hell if they fail.

And members of the church don't even have to agree to all those aspirational standards.


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30 Dec 2011, 11:16 pm

Robdemanc wrote:
I have been reading the bible for a few weeks. I have read the gospels and been going through the OT. I am now up to Judges.

I have to say there is little text in there that refers to homosexual. There is some that refers to sexual indiscretion but homosexual behaviour is just placed as an add on after going on about Thou shalt not lie with daughter, mother, brothers wife, uncles wife...I think it even mentions lying with beasts before it refers to not lying with mankind as womankind.

Maybe the best is yet to come, but the way religous people go on about it its as though its plastered on every page.

It is much more diturbing that the whole book of Numbers and Joshua consists of the Lord urging Moses and joshua to kill men, women and children and loot cities before burning them to the ground.


It doesn't change. The sexual sins tend to be discussed together, throwing homosexual acts into the same basket as fortification and masturbation. The only one that gets special treatment is adultery, by mention in the ten commandments.


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