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Sweetleaf
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21 Mar 2012, 8:01 pm

Raptor wrote:
Banning anything that is considered desirable creates an instant black market and all the issues that come with black markets.

Besides, I enjoy ridiculing militant non-smokers that gasp and cough as if they as being gassed when there is a lit cigarette within a 50 ft radius of them...... :D


See normally I do my best not to blow smoke in peoples faces...but when they behave like that, it makes me want to. lol


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enrico_dandolo
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21 Mar 2012, 8:24 pm

I think everything would be much better without smoking. I don't particularly care if people like wasting their money on cigarettes, but I do care about not inhaling their smoke, and I do care about not paying for their inflated healthcare. (I understand the principle could be extended to other activities or habits, but those would have to be evaluated separately.)

The "good for the economy" argument is quite strange. If smoking stopped, it would redirect resources to other sectors with little long term consequences. Fewer people would seek jobs in the tobacco industry, fields would be slowly converted to other crops, capital would be invested elsewhere, just as consummers would spend their money elsewhere, all distributed between all other fields of production. I hardly think any hypothetical consequence from jobs lost, decreased concumption, etc., would be worst to the economy than losing people and their abilities many years too early.

However, banning it altogether is really not an efficient way to stop smoking. It would just create a huge black market. Increasing taxes is, to me, a very adequate method. This would compensate for the increased health care costs as well as create a stronger financial incentive not to smoke. There should also be cultural changes, but I don't really know how that could be done "from the top". To be honest, I don't understand why anyone smokes in the first place. It seems so irrational I don't know how it can be fought with any kind of reason.



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21 Mar 2012, 9:03 pm

enrico_dandolo wrote:
Increasing taxes is, to me, a very adequate method.


This is essentially the same as banning it and will lead to much the same outcome.



techstepgenr8tion
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21 Mar 2012, 9:31 pm

The best way to 'ban' something is simply make it obsolete or irrelevant. Things like 'blue cigs' are helping a lot of smokers who don't want to smoke find the alternatives to quit or at a minimum get past the tar.

These days it seems like more and more people, at least in my generation (Gen X/Y border) and younger are typically just social smokers and if they smoke at all its typically when they drink. When two pack a day smokers are a growing rarity and even one pack a day smokers, we're getting to a place where I'd think we're pointing way too much hate at something that's diminishing on its own anyway.


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Tequila
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21 Mar 2012, 9:34 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
The best way to 'ban' something is simply make it obsolete or irrelevant.


Bans never work. They just lend something a cachet that the proposers of these bans never see or intend. Self-defeating, really.



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21 Mar 2012, 9:36 pm

That and in a lot of ways it seems like all the anti-smoking fervor is mostly because people find it 'Ewwwy'. When that sort of calumny jumps out regularly it tends to discredit their argument and tends to make independent-minded people even *want* to smoke just to flip them the bird, let alone it makes the anti-tobacco and 'Truth' people look like excited basketcases.


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Tequila
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21 Mar 2012, 9:38 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
That and in a lot of ways it seems like all the anti-smoking fervor is mostly because people find it 'Ewwwy'.


There is also the fact that most of the anti-smoking organisations are being funded by pharmaceutical companies who want to flog people patches and the like.



enrico_dandolo
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21 Mar 2012, 10:21 pm

Tequila wrote:
enrico_dandolo wrote:
Increasing taxes is, to me, a very adequate method.


This is essentially the same as banning it and will lead to much the same outcome.

Hum... no. There is a very large difference between paying x % more for something and being forced to buy it illegally. Besides, that x % would compensate for the externalities.



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21 Mar 2012, 10:27 pm

enrico_dandolo wrote:
Hum... no. There is a very large difference between paying x % more for something and being forced to buy it illegally.


It is if the real article is unaffordable for millions of people. 77% of the cost of cigarettes in the UK is tax. Also, many smokers refuse to pay hand over fist for their own demonisation.

Cigarettes are US$10.50+ for a pack of 20 here. Lots of people here are either buying their cigarettes abroad (bringing cigarettes back from abroad is a matter of course for many now, as much as the UKBA are focused on harassing travellers) or are getting them illegally.



Last edited by Tequila on 21 Mar 2012, 10:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ruveyn
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21 Mar 2012, 10:30 pm

The year I quit smoking cigarettes (1962) they were going for about 32 cents a pack.

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21 Mar 2012, 10:45 pm

Tequila wrote:
enrico_dandolo wrote:
Hum... no. There is a very large difference between paying x % more for something and being forced to buy it illegally.


It is if the real article is unaffordable for millions of people. 77% of the cost of cigarettes in the UK is tax.

Cigarettes are US$10.50+ for a pack of 20 here. Lots of people here are either buying their cigarettes abroad (bringing cigarettes back from abroad is a matter of course for many now, as much as the UKBA are focused on harassing travellers) or are getting them illegally.

I don't mean that there is no black market when increasing the prices through taxes. There is a black market for almost everything anyway, and trying to bypass taxes in general is not exactly a rare practice. However, increasing taxes is still qualitatively different from banning completely, if only because it makes the act of smoking cigarettes legal in general, whether or not the cigarettes were bought legally.

The point is a) to take externalities into account and b) to phase out smoking in the (very) long term.

(By the way, here in Canada, cigarettes are not much cheaper, and even with all the smuggling with Indian reserves going on, most people still buy them legally, presumably at least because it is easy.)



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21 Mar 2012, 11:45 pm

enrico_dandolo wrote:
Tequila wrote:
enrico_dandolo wrote:
Hum... no. There is a very large difference between paying x % more for something and being forced to buy it illegally.


It is if the real article is unaffordable for millions of people. 77% of the cost of cigarettes in the UK is tax.

Cigarettes are US$10.50+ for a pack of 20 here. Lots of people here are either buying their cigarettes abroad (bringing cigarettes back from abroad is a matter of course for many now, as much as the UKBA are focused on harassing travellers) or are getting them illegally.

I don't mean that there is no black market when increasing the prices through taxes. There is a black market for almost everything anyway, and trying to bypass taxes in general is not exactly a rare practice. However, increasing taxes is still qualitatively different from banning completely, if only because it makes the act of smoking cigarettes legal in general, whether or not the cigarettes were bought legally.

The point is a) to take externalities into account and b) to phase out smoking in the (very) long term.

(By the way, here in Canada, cigarettes are not much cheaper, and even with all the smuggling with Indian reserves going on, most people still buy them legally, presumably at least because it is easy.)


They are also of much higher quality for the mostpart. $20 packs of 200 native cigarettes; usually full of tobacco stem and poor tobacco leaf... crappy filters... blech. Rather buy a (at least, when I smoked up until several years ago) $6.75 twenty pack of Macdonald Special


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22 Mar 2012, 7:15 am

Although people are welcome to poison their bodies if they want, the problem I have with cigarettes is the massive profits that the tobacco companies make from it. I wouldn't ban smoking outright, but I would ban all tobacco advertising in all forms (commercials, ads in magazines, product placement, sponsorship, etc.), regulate packaging to that it would consist entirely of a warning label, with the brand name in a small, standardized font, regulate cigarettes so that companies can't make gimmicky ones to try to get people to smoke, and most of all I would ban smoking in all public places, outdoors or indoors. If you want to smoke in your house, apartment, yard, or balcony then fine, but I should not be obliged to inhale carcinogens when I'm waiting at the bus stop.



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22 Mar 2012, 7:19 am

AstroGeek wrote:
Although people are welcome to poison their bodies if they want, the problem I have with cigarettes is the massive profits that the tobacco companies make from it.


Jealousy, then.

Do you feel similarly about pharmaceutical companies?



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22 Mar 2012, 8:50 am

androbot2084 wrote:
If the prison were a hell hole there would be no volunteers. It doesn't matter if the prison were a hell hole or a country club. The concept is that once you volunteer for treatment you give up your rights as a free citizen. Inside the prison smoking is not possible and you are not allowed to leave until you have completed your sentence. Good way to lose weight. Since imprisonment is temporary the free human spirit will not be broken because there is light at the end of the tunnel.


Wasn't this the premise of a Steven King short "horror" story? "Quitters Inc" [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yl4-b91QgnQ[/youtube]



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22 Mar 2012, 8:51 am

AstroGeek wrote:
Although people are welcome to poison their bodies if they want, the problem I have with cigarettes is the massive profits that the tobacco companies make from it. I wouldn't ban smoking outright, but I would ban all tobacco advertising in all forms (commercials, ads in magazines, product placement, sponsorship, etc.), regulate packaging to that it would consist entirely of a warning label, with the brand name in a small, standardized font, regulate cigarettes so that companies can't make gimmicky ones to try to get people to smoke, and most of all I would ban smoking in all public places, outdoors or indoors. If you want to smoke in your house, apartment, yard, or balcony then fine, but I should not be obliged to inhale carcinogens when I'm waiting at the bus stop.


There are some First Amendment issues here. Free Speech includes Free Commercial Speech. People have a right to hawk their goods as long as they do not commit fraud. As long as you know what you are getting with each puff you can decline to inhale carcinogens. Also, insurance companies can charge higher premiums on health/medical care insurance for those foolish enough to smoke. I am fifty years without a cigarette. I still consider myself a smoker.

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