My question for atheists.

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*sigh*

Let me clarify: Marxism is an ideology that requires atheism. Marxists are not the predominant atheists and most atheists today will not associate themselves with Marxism. Marxist ideology also includes a LOT MORE than just atheism. The issue is that this "LOT MORE" is sufficient to explain the outcomes caused by Marxist policies. Finally, as absurd as this may be, various religious groups have tried incorporating Marxism into their belief systems, mostly certain far-left sects of Christianity, and Marx is a major figure at a number of liberal seminaries, making the entire matter much more complicated.

So, the reason why I say they are separate is because frankly, the problems of Marxism really appear strongly associated with the social theory aspects, as the same social theory aspects also required the need for orthodoxy, which also included purging religion and things like that, it's really NOT an issue with Marxism being materialist.

If you disagree, you can express this, but I wanted to make the issue about Marxism only being a subset of atheism, and marginal subset of Western atheism rather clear. I'm not trying to say that Stalin was a Catholic or anything of that nature, only that the comparison is absurd. (And frankly, the comparison *IS* absurd. The confounding variables in the situation are so extreme that the use of the example is more likely just a sign of poor knowledge of that situation, or a very underhanded apologetic strategy. I cannot say the same about the efforts to kill heretics, as that was part of the Christian experience UNTIL the Enlightenment, and it is STILL a part of the Islamic experience. Unless we wish to abandon all of Christian history as relevant(something absurd given Christianity's claims about the church and how it is guided by God), we have to admit that Christianity has been willing to kill people based upon what they believe.

The People's Republic of China is Marxist. It's run by the Communist party. It was founded on Marxism.

I agree, Marxism has done many evil things. But I consider this separate from atheism though simply because
1) Marxism as an ideology shows a lot of unique traits, and these unique traits are really not conducive to a properly functioning discourse. Marxism has historically tended towards a drive for ideological purity, and even a need to fulfill a vision of the "end-times", and both of these change the matter immensely.
2) Marxism is not a functioning economic philosophy. It is utterly broken and utterly false. This created problems because nations like the USSR found themselves stuck in a situation that was not workable, when they had gotten there through means that were not workable. So, the cruelty of the dictatorship was partially driven by the earlier need for ideological purity, but also driven by the fact that the communists were running their society on a broken idea, where they had no idea how to implement it, and where their efforts were deeply confused.
3) Marxists simply did not practice what we in the West know to be best practices, and emerged from a revolution. Governments that emerge from revolutions are known to be unstable.

Joker, there is no unified "atheist" ideology, unlike with Christianity or Islam, etc. There are not a lot of unifying traits for "atheism". There are different ideologies that either require or are compatible with atheism, and these ideologies are important in evaluating the issue. Marxism, as I pointed out, is toxic. However, the term "atheism" suggests a negative identity. Atheists identify as atheists because they are NOT theists, because the sociological set-up is such that an identity as NOT being a theist is meaningful. Unless you believe there is a unity in atheism, and wish to identify it, then there is nothing to discuss.

If there IS a unifying atheistic cause to various evils, and you can identify it as specifically related to atheism, you are free to do so and argue on those grounds. But pointing to a few Marxist governments that emerged from dilapidated systems involves too many other common variables that could cause the same effects to make this a useful example.

So, Joker, if I am copping out, then show how Marxist brutalities are rooted in atheism, and how non-Marxist, non-revolutionary atheist societies have led to such utter depravity. Give me a more complete and fleshed out model of the situation, like what a cause would require. Saying "X was there! Therefore X is responsible!" doesn't work.

I would hope so. Otherwise, there would be some serious hypocrisy going on.

Unfortunately, I think people would still argue just for the sake of arguing though.

As for my self, I am agnostic, and I respect freedom of thought. So I don't care what anyone thinks. The only time I may attack religion is when it is used as a weapon (unfortunately, this does happen)

I will sometimes side with religious people on certain points and I find that a lot of atheists automatically assume I'm religious just for siding them on a certain point even when I'm not religious at all. Freedom of thought is the most important thing to me. I am not religious though.

Not just out of government, your religion should be like masturbating, something you do in your own house, never tell anyone about and if you do it in public, you should be locked up in a looney bin.

This is just plain bloody offensive, there are many beliefs that to my mind are nonsensical but to say that they should never see the public light of day is a major restriction on freedom of speech.

@ op the idea that religion stays out of politics is like asking fish to stay out of water, its just not going to happen, religion IS politics to its very foundations. Religion has always been used as a tool for control and will always be so. But yes if somehow religion could break free from its fundamental reason for existence then I would try to only discuss religion with those who wished to.

The People's Republic of China is Marxist.

Utter garbage, I know that you are fundamentally opposed to Marxism even so I am surprised that you would write something as inaccurate as this.

I will however concede that Atheism has nothing to do with a political/economic ideology. It would be a contradiction to declare oneself a christian Marxist, in the same way it is a contradiction to declare oneself a homosexual catholic. This does not mean that all catholics are homophobic or that all atheists are Marxist

Marxism isn't so much directly atheist as indirectly atheist. Marx is quoted as saying "Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world and the soul of soulless conditions, it is the opiate of the people. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness, the criticism of religion is therefore in embryo a criticism of that veil of tears of which religion is the halo"

The reason Marxism is atheist is because Marx thought he had create a system in which teh veil of tears was non-existent and thus there was no need for religion. Furthermore, Marxism can in many ways be argued to be a religion on its own.

We have killed in the past and still do kill to this very day at least we do not denie that are actions where motivated in the name of God but atheists never seem to admit to themslefs that they are capeable of doin the same thing.

Utter garbage, I know that you are fundamentally opposed to Marxism even so I am surprised that you would write something as inaccurate as this.

I will however concede that Atheism has nothing to do with a political/economic ideology. It would be a contradiction to declare oneself a christian Marxist, in the same way it is a contradiction to declare oneself a homosexual catholic. This does not mean that all catholics are homophobic or that all atheists are Marxist

Karl Marx’s extremist followers were not in any way impeded in their blood-thirsty global quest by fear of a Higher Power. Atheism took very efficient care of this “limiting factor.” Since the end justified the means, as Machiavelli had instructed, they could do whatever was necessary to bring about a workers’ paradise. Because the opposition in some cases proved to be powerful and resilient, drastic means were used. Large numbers were killed for refusing to abandon their religious beliefs. A great many were sent to concentration camps.

Yes when religion is used as a WEPON it is not motivated as a religious movement many right wing regimes have used religion as a wepon to meet their goals when this happens though the religious do not denie it. Some athiests are egotists and in a way act just like the fundies do how ever they never see it that way.

Some catholics are homsexual but for their safety they stay in the closet. The only reason homosexuality was opposed by Christians was because it was a law the coucil at the time wrote into law and added it into the bible when the early church was not even against it at all. I am omisexual meaing I am attracted to people not gender.

Its god is the revolution by way of the dialectic. And it's heaven is the classless society.

ruveyn