HisDivineMajesty wrote:
enrico_dandolo wrote:
The only thing I said is that the fact that they are "them" and we are "us" is not a valid argument for anything.
Actually, it is. If people in general recognise themselves as being two different groups, and having hate for the other group forced into them from an early age or in an extreme way a bit later on, there is a lot to say - from one group's perspective, of course - for not allowing the other group to get too much of a figurative foothold in a region you share, in this case Syria. Assad's supporters, and there are more than western media would like us to believe, do not want the other group to win, because that would be the end of their group and its dominance over Syria's resources and society.
Between countries, there's a lot to say for the idea that there is an us, and there is a them. One of the reasons many Europeans have for wanting to stop or limit immigration, especially from islamic countries, is that many of these immigrants do - in spite of people trying to help them integrate - openly and loudly oppose the society they live in. Some have not made a secret of their desire for an islamic society, or a society where western values are overrun. That creates, again, a feeling in the other group, causing that particular conflict to escalate slowly but steadily, from a silent opinion to a loud opinion on the streets to a political opinion in countries now - to a Europe-wide consensus that there is too much islamic influence in a few years?
I think we actually agree, but talk on different levels of analysis. What I meant is that the fact that people live in different places is not, in itself, a valid argument. However, the fact that people perceive themselves as different and the consequences thereof are important and must be taken into account -- which matches what you just said, I think.
HisDivineMajesty wrote:
enrico_dandolo wrote:
My point, if I could clarify it, is that suffering happening in Syria, in Italy, in Russia, in Bangladesh or in California is identical, from an ethical point of view. Now, it is true that groups of people perceive themselves as different from other groups, and that must be ultimately taken into account; but it doesn't change the fact that human beings are all equal quantities, with no regards to whether they are "us" or "them", and wherever they live.
That depends a lot on your point of view. For Assad, suffering among rebels has absolutely no value, while suffering among the group he purports to lead and represent is taken very seriously by his regime. Remember last year's massacre in Norway? Remember the Itaba massacre in Burundi? More than twice as many victims, but it remained largely unreported in the west. There is such a thing as group bias, and it has a strong influence on perception.
That, as you said, is "perception". I agree that biases exist, but when considering the ideal possible course of action, humans are equal quantities, wherever they live. (This could be understood as an idealist position, but it really isn't. It is more a highly abstract one.)
HisDivineMajesty wrote:
... or just forgot about their culture altogether and joined a different group.
I call that merging. It doesn't have to be symetric.
25 Jul 2012, 2:39 pm
