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Feeling of truth and spiritual substance

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Tensu
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16 Sep 2012, 1:41 pm

circular wrote:
Tensu wrote:
Our understanding of what those words mean are all based on our own personal mental experiences. How I describe having an idea and how you describe it may be similar, but the actual experiences of idea-having that we have might be very different from another, seeing as the terms we use to describe them are so abstract.

Thus, two people of different faiths may both report an experience that they describe as spiritual, but that hardly means that they had they same experience.

Sure but then it is based on the same thing, the mind. So the shape may be different, but the substance is the same.


Alright, one of us is not understanding the other. How does being based in the mind mean that the substance is automatically the same? It is possible for these two different minds to be experiencing two different substances, but to be describing them in similar terms.



techstepgenr8tion
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16 Sep 2012, 1:45 pm

ruveyn wrote:
techstepgenr8tion wrote:
Are you saying the subjective doesn't exist though? If so you can't ad hok 'all else' out there. If otherwise - perhaps its best to then look at 'mind' as a manifestation of the subjective.


Of course subjectivity exists. It exists along with sickness, evil, stupidity, laziness, incompetence and all the other things that hinder the life well lived.

The idea is to have as little subjectivity as is humanly possible.

ruveyn

It just doesn't fit into the same mould as sickness, evil, stupidity, laziness, and incompetence because its a primary element and cause, not a consequence. No matter how many rules we obey its still just as real as ever.



ruveyn
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16 Sep 2012, 3:55 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
It just doesn't fit into the same mould as sickness, evil, stupidity, laziness, and incompetence because its a primary element and cause, not a consequence. No matter how many rules we obey its still just as real as ever.


Then let us get rid of as much subjectivity as we can.

ruveyn



techstepgenr8tion
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17 Sep 2012, 9:44 pm

ruveyn wrote:
techstepgenr8tion wrote:
It just doesn't fit into the same mould as sickness, evil, stupidity, laziness, and incompetence because its a primary element and cause, not a consequence. No matter how many rules we obey its still just as real as ever.


Then let us get rid of as much subjectivity as we can.

ruveyn

Well, objectivity is a subset of subjectivity. I think its important for us to make judicious use of subjectivity rather than being willfully or ignorantly reckless with it but saying shut it all down is like saying we need to put restrictive goggles on so that we can all share 20 degree vision from each eye.



circular
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18 Sep 2012, 2:00 pm

Tensu wrote:
Alright, one of us is not understanding the other. How does being based in the mind mean that the substance is automatically the same? It is possible for these two different minds to be experiencing two different substances, but to be describing them in similar terms.

Well this is not convincing at all. You can have of course a different way of organizing your mind, but that your mind is not of the same substance is like saying that we are not made of the same matter because we have a different look.

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
Well, objectivity is a subset of subjectivity. I think its important for us to make judicious use of subjectivity rather than being willfully or ignorantly reckless with it but saying shut it all down is like saying we need to put restrictive goggles on so that we can all share 20 degree vision from each eye.

Yes. Even if I don't share the idea of "believing", I totally agree on this. Our experience of life is subjective. It just does not make sense to have none or "as little as possible". The only condition is that we do not force our subjectivity on other people.



ruveyn
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18 Sep 2012, 5:12 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
Well, objectivity is a subset of subjectivity. I think its important for us to make judicious use of subjectivity rather than being willfully or ignorantly reckless with it but saying shut it all down is like saying we need to put restrictive goggles on so that we can all share 20 degree vision from each eye.


Better to see what is actually there with the goggles then to see what we imagine is there without the goggles.

ruveyn



Tensu
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18 Sep 2012, 5:52 pm

circular wrote:
Tensu wrote:
Alright, one of us is not understanding the other. How does being based in the mind mean that the substance is automatically the same? It is possible for these two different minds to be experiencing two different substances, but to be describing them in similar terms.

Well this is not convincing at all. You can have of course a different way of organizing your mind, but that your mind is not of the same substance is like saying that we are not made of the same matter because we have a different look.


I think I know where the misunderstanding is: by "spiritual substance" you were referring to what part of the mind experiences spirituality, not what the mind was experiencing.

I think debating what the mind is "made of" is pretty pointless.



circular
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20 Sep 2012, 12:30 pm

In the contrary, I think that what the mind is made of is an essentiel question, because if we understand it, we can see how different elements can give the impression of unity, and so understanding spiritual feelings.



circular
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20 Sep 2012, 12:32 pm

ruveyn wrote:
techstepgenr8tion wrote:
Well, objectivity is a subset of subjectivity. I think its important for us to make judicious use of subjectivity rather than being willfully or ignorantly reckless with it but saying shut it all down is like saying we need to put restrictive goggles on so that we can all share 20 degree vision from each eye.


Better to see what is actually there with the goggles then to see what we imagine is there without the goggles.

ruveyn

With subjectivity, it does not work like that, because it is our experience. I would say the most basic philosophical approach of this is phenomenology.



Tensu
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20 Sep 2012, 9:27 pm

circular wrote:
In the contrary, I think that what the mind is made of is an essentiel question, because if we understand it, we can see how different elements can give the impression of unity, and so understanding spiritual feelings.


I don't doubt that, but how is it possible to figure out what the mind is "made of"? Why assume the mind is "made" of anything at all?



circular
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21 Sep 2012, 2:59 pm

Because the mind is like a flow of thought, feelings etc. It changes so it must be made of something that change it's relationships. If it was not composed, it would not be able to change, so there would be no flow.



Tensu
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26 Sep 2012, 9:19 pm

circular wrote:
Because the mind is like a flow of thought, feelings etc. It changes so it must be made of something that change it's relationships. If it was not composed, it would not be able to change, so there would be no flow.


This sounds to me like jumping to conclusions. Why would something indivisible be unable to change?



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27 Sep 2012, 6:19 am

ruveyn wrote:
circular wrote:

What can we say about this substance, if ever it exists ?


Spiritual "substance" is fancy and illusion. Only physical things are real.

ruveyn


A problem of circularity. We define eg electromagnetism as physical lsrgely because we have decided it is real. If we took mana as real we would accord it physical status.



ruveyn
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27 Sep 2012, 9:48 am

Philologos wrote:

A problem of circularity. We define eg electromagnetism as physical lsrgely because we have decided it is real. If we took mana as real we would accord it physical status.


Try operating the GPS with "spiritual substance".

ruveyn



Tensu
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27 Sep 2012, 10:54 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Philologos wrote:

A problem of circularity. We define eg electromagnetism as physical lsrgely because we have decided it is real. If we took mana as real we would accord it physical status.


Try operating the GPS with "spiritual substance".

ruveyn


So... you're saying anything that can't operate an electronic device isn't real? :hmph:



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27 Sep 2012, 11:11 pm

Definition of Mind from The Dalai Lama's book 'Illuminating the path to Enlightenment',
"Defined as that which is clear and knowing,a formless entity that has the ability to perceive objects.Mind is divided into six primary consciousnesses and fifty-one mental factors".

Form is emptiness,emptiness is form.

The Heart Sutra