Why do Christians not follow the bible?

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The thing that always "tickled" me about Christians is that they are so humble that they say things like "So, here is what a being of incomprehensible intellectual power meant" (paraphrased). However, I didn't say that Jesus commanded his followers to kill, I'm saying that it's implicit in the literal phrasing of his words. Much like the Numbers 31, 17:18 that I use again later doesn't literally say to force the women to marry them and then rape them. (and yes, I know this is old testament)

Of course, if you are one of those "trinity" people, then Jesus in essence is God, and God did command the murder of quite a few people in the sociopathic killing spree that is the old testament.

It's a good thing that you reminded me of the whole "love thy enemy" and "turn the other cheek" aspects, because I forgot to mention why those are immoral as well. However, I'll deal with them after I deal with your interpretation of the intentions of a being of incomprehensible intelligence. (Which is a bit like a dog going "So, this is what Shakespeare meant", but I disgress.) *note this is not meant as an insult, its a comparison of the intellectual level of a human compared to that of the Christian God*

Being willing to "give up" your family, means being willing to sacrifice them in order to follow Christ, however, your argument to the effect of "this means that you must be willing to leave them" reminds me of the argument I once heard in response to Numbers 31 17:18, "It wasn't said that they had immoral intentions for those virgins". (Note, I'm not arguing that you believe this, I'm using it as an analogy to illustrate my argument) In essence, you must be willing to give up your family (and your obligations to them) in order to follow Christ.

Now, onto the "loving enemies" and "turning the other cheek" bit, how is this immoral? Well, loving your enemy apart from appearing quite ironic coming from a dude who was quite fond of namecalling "ye serpets, ye vipers" and threatening people with eternal hell.
This more or less means , "let your family be killed, don't do anything to stop him and love him for doing it". I appologize if I'm being quite literal here, but while I am without a doubt arrogant, I'm not quite so arrogant as to presume that I can interpret the intentions behind the words of a being of incomprehensible intelligence.

"Loving your enemies" is also questionable, in short, it leads to pacifism, which again leads to your enemies overcoming you. By letting your enemies overcome you, you prove that your values are not highly held nor worth defending (other than loving your enemies). If this had been the policy of the Church (and no I'm not arguing that you belong to any church just laying the consequences out there), then the words of Christ would have died out somewhere in the desert between 33 AD and about 500 AD.

Turning the other cheek, it's hard to argue for its straight immorality, but I have to give it credit for pardon my French, being funny as f**k. Wouldn't this imply that if I hurt god by sinning, then he should turn the other cheek and not send me to hell, thus making the entire Christian doctrine a kind of deus ex machina? If I'm mistaking I'm sure you can tell me what Jesus meant.

I totally forget about the "great" "Golden rule" the very essence of self-contentedness. "Therefore all things whatsoever would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them" Matt 7:12 often made a bit more understandable as "Do onto others as you would have them do to you" first of all, it assumes that everyone has similar tastes.

I'm fairly sure that Christians would take somewhat offense to me going around to people on their deathbeds going "well, you've lived in this religious delusion long enough! Why not end your life as a rationalist?".

I'm also fairly sure, that this would have unintentional consequences if one was standing across from Charles Manson (it would create some issues with turning of cheeks and loving enemies for sure), not to mention if one happened to be a masochist.

That's completely and utterly ignoring the fact that its quite anti-individualistic and very much pro-conformity.

I understand that you are not insulting me and I completely agree with you that normal mortal beings are incapable of knowing and understanding the things of God. The Bible agrees with you, too. God refers to mankind as worms and grasshoppers and Jesus himself referred to the Gentiles as dogs, so why should I be offended at your comparison? But the Bible points out that Christians are not normal mortals any more. Unlike you, I have the Holy Ghost to explain the Bible to me. See 1 Corinthians 2:

"Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ."

If you want to be able to interpret the intentions behind the words of God, all you need to do is become a Christian, and then Jesus will come and explain it all to you just as he has explained it all to me. Christians have the mind of Christ. That means we understand God's affairs. That is why I understand things. It is not about being proud. The Bible points out that a Christian cannot take credit for anything God gives them, or be proud of it, because it all came from God. (1 Cor. 4:7). But the above passage explains that if someone is not a Christian, they are still a mere person of flesh, and do not have God's spirit to explain what is going through his mind. No human can read minds. We cannot know what is in God's mind unless he tells us. And Christians are told. We have the mind of Christ. The Bible states that you cannot understand or know any of God's great mysteries if you are still dead in your sins. It also states that, while you remain without Christ, all these things will seem foolishness to you (hence why you are arguing against them).

I understand that you completely disagree with me, and that's fine. At least you are different from most of the people on here. At least you are remaining polite and rational without becoming emotional and rude and making spiteful personal attacks (so far).

It's normally carnage in here.

Sorry, but your entire explanation is ad hoc (for this purpose only).

Okay, so the Holy Spirit is supposed to inform Christians what the Bible really means. Then why do some of them insist that there aren't any transitional fossils or other evidence that clearly show evolution happens? If evolution didn't happen, that makes God a tremendous liar (or at least prankster) to plant so much evidence that says otherwise. And it isn't just evolution that Christians disagree about. Pick any subject, ANY subject at all, and you will find differences of opinion among the Christian community about the Biblical stance on that subject. Surely if they were being informed by the same Holy Spirit, there should be some consensus, shouldn't there? And every denomination can pick up their Bible (and translations can vary widely) and point to certain verses that show why their church has it right and all those other Christian denominations have it wrong. I've heard of a split in a church over whether or not the communion cups should have handles!

I didn't know what "ad hoc" meant, so I had to look it up.

The explanation I provided was not mine. It was God's. I merely quoted a Bible verse and then wrote about it to try and explain it to you.

Never mind. I can see it isn't going to be any use.

Yeah...we've got some pretty high debate standards around here.

Well, most of us, anyway.

I quoted from the Almighty himself.

The standard of my sources could not possibly be set any higher.

Mmmhm. Yeah, see, this is the bit I'm talking about. 'Debate standards' doesn't mean anything close to what you think it means (as evidenced by your statements). We want more than once source. We want verifiable sources. We appreciate things like logical arguments, news links, and clearly thought-out statements. Might I suggest you read some of AngelRho's posts for an example of, at the barest minimum, well laid-out and comprehensible arguments? 'Cause at the moment you're doing your faith no favors.

As a Christian I only quote from the Bible. I do not need any other sources, thank you. This is not supposed to be a thread debating about whether or not God exists, or anything like that. It's supposed to be discussing why many professing Christians do not follow the Bible, remember?

Then by all means, why don't we discuss this post you failed to address whatsoever. After all, these people probably very earnestly wanted to permit Christ and the Holy Spirit into their lives. What is it that causes such disunity of scripture, then, if aforementioned Phantasmal Public Relations Agent is tasked with making sure that such events don't occur?

I may have failed to address it, but God has not. God has addressed everything you want to know. All you need to do is go and look it up in the Bible.

I think the answer to that particular question lies in chapter 4 of the book of Ephesians. I could paste it all here, but it might be rather long.

Here are the main relevant parts:

14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,

18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

20 But ye have not so learned Christ;

21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus

These quotes from God would seem to indicate that there are two possible answers to your question:

1. Christians who do not yet understand the Bible are still children. They are tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men. Give them a break. They're still Christian babies.

2. Alternatively, the people in question may have never even heard from Jesus at all, and have not been taught by him, and are not really his sheep at all. They are not really Christians. That is very sad.

P.S. No one "permits" Christ and the Holy Spirit into their life. It is the other way round. God is the one in charge of granting permissions. He's the boss of us, not the other way round.

I do appreciate you telling me all of this. I am a very concrete thinker and I do have problems with abstract thinking. This means a lot of the symbolism that exists in various texts including the bible I will not fundamentally grasp nor understand unless it is thouroughly explained.

It is said one of the gifts of the holy spirit is speaking in tounges(http://ichthys.com/mail-tongues2.htm). This means those who preach the word and has this gift would be able to present it in communication style that I am truthfully able to grasp and understand.

God knows who I am, my intent, my very thoughts and my heart, am I correct? I desire to know and understand his word but how can I if my concrete thinking impairs my understanding of what is what? How can I tell if I am truthfully reading it right? How can I discern that anyone who preaches God's word is God's true representative or God's true prophet? How do I discern that you're his true representative or his true prophet?

How do I determine that any message, whether it be represented from a person from a dream, or any other source I receive is from the true holy spirit or if it is from the devil, undigested food or anywhere else? How do I know if a message I receive is from the holy spirit or if I am being deceived? I asked my wife the same question and she gave me this as an answer. In order to understand the bible I must go to God? I asked her how do I know if the comfirmation or answer I receive is from God. She told me that I had to go to the bible and understand the bible. She is saying that A leads to B and B leads to A. What does this circular reasoning mean exactly? I did not mentally grasp what she said.



I used concrete thinking and came to conclusions which you state were false.

No, I don't think it's talking about a communication style. There is some debate about what it really means to speak in tongues. Some people claim it means that God gives you the supernatural power to speak actual foreign languages in order to preach to foreign people you meet. Other people believe it means talking angelic languages. The fact that they believe that means that it's very easy for people to "prove" that they are born again. All that they need to do is be able to jabber nonsense and claim that they are speaking in angel language and then claim that their jabbering is a sign of their Christianity. Personally I am not really sure which view is correct but I find it significant that the most easy of all the gifts to counterfeit (tongues) is the one that is the most widespread amongst professing Christians today. After all, you can't really fake a miracle or a supernatural healing, can you? Call me sceptical but I do not believe that most of those jabbering people are really born again at all. Also, the gifts are not the mark of being a Christian. The way we are told to recognise a Christian is by examining their fruits, not their gifts.



Well that is the hard part. Satan loves deceiving people so it is of course possible that I am deceived as well and do not know it, but I doubt it. The only way to be able to discern things is to ask for God to help you. God is very kind and helps people who are genuinely humble and desperate for him to help them. You have to ask God to teach you. I know that comes back to that circular reasoning you dislike so much, but it really is true. You have to ask God.

You probably already know the ways the Bible gives us of figuring out who is really of God and who is not: spirits that do not confess that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh are not of God. Therefore, anyone who denies that Jesus was God in human form is not of God. The Bible states very clearly "God was manifest in the flesh" and Jesus told the Pharisees "I and my Father are one" so anyone who denies that fact is being led or influenced by some sort of spirit that is not of Jesus at all.

Also, the Bible says that one of the ways of knowing a true prophet is that the things that they say will come to pass. On the other hand, it also warns that there will be lots of false prophets doing lots of great miracles, too, and warns us not to be taken in by them. Therefore, doing miracles or accurate prophecies is not necessarily a proof that someone is of God. Unfortunately we can never know with 100% certainty that any fellow believers will not turn out to be false brethren after all. You know the parable of the wheat and the tares. That parable probably implies that the wheat are not aware that the tares are tares. The wheat probably think the tares are wheat. In other words, perhaps true Christians cannot know which of their professing brethren are really of Christ. The Bible says "the Lord knoweth them that are his." It does not say that we know. Also there is no mention that the seal being placed upon people's foreheads described in the book of Revelation will be a visible one. It is probable that we will not be able to see it, and will not know who the real Christians are until Judgement Day. Only God will.

When it comes to knowing whether a message is from God or not, if you have ever met the real Jesus, you will know his voice, and will know when something is from him. That is why he says "my sheep know my voice."

Have you ever met Jesus? Have you had a supernatural encounter with him? Have you truly been called? Have you experienced true conviction of sin and repentance? Those things are necessary and they are things that only he can do. He is the one who decides that those things are going to happen, not us. Nonetheless, he has promised to give his holy spirit to those who keep on pestering him, so just ask. I was terribly blind and wicked and deceived until I met him and he began to kindly teach me things. I hope he does the same for you. It does not matter if you think your autism makes your thinking "impaired" because God is able to supernaturally enable us to understand things that we could not understand naturally. Just ask him.

You know this verse?

"not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty"

meaning that it doesn't matter that you have "impaired thinking" or that I have an incredibly low IQ, because stupid people / people who are not considered by society to be clever or have great intellectual understanding are just the kind of people Jesus delights to call.

Plodder, I would not have thought it was that simple to ask him. I am going to think about what you said in your responses to me. Speaking of speaking in tounges you may have already spoken to me in a way I can understand. Personally, I think you're a kind woman and again if I misrepresented any of God's word I am sorry.

I'm going to be honest. I have feelings of antipathy and hatred towards what the people of the USA have become. A lot are liars, charlatans, and deceivers. It seems like America has become a place in which the only way to succeed is to be better at speaking double-speak and being the better con-artist. The workplace is filled with these things. I freaking hate it. It is a place that if you look at the surface it looks like a crowning jewel and very shiny gold but if you look underneath it looks like dung and filth.

Well, there you are. You just said something that sounds like just the sort of thing Jesus says. The gold with filth underneath it, I mean. Perhaps he is helping you already and you're already thinking his thoughts.

Now some could take this quotation and say something mean about it, as if one has to be stupid to believe in Jesus. I look upon it as there being varying levels of spiritual awareness that do not necessarily correspond to levels of intellect or other knowledge.

To answer the question of this thread though, there are many differing interpretations of what the Bible says. Each interpretation can be a separate church, and even within the same church different members of the congregation may have a different understanding of what that church believes, regardless of whatever is in print as that church's defining beliefs. So no wonder it is difficult to follow the Bible when it's difficult to find out what exactly it is being said in the Bible. So many different opinions...

Deeper than that though, is something I've heard more than once. God knows humans are not capable of following His rules. Any commandments or instructions given in the Bible are there not to be followed but for us to try, fail, and then hopefully realize that we cannot do it even if we want to (at least not when stuck in the ego self). It is a form of teaching. Still, it is good to try, or at least WANT to try, to be "good," with the awareness that good deeds or thoughts alone are not enough to save you according to mainstream Christianity.

They say you have to believe in Jesus, that without his sacrifice you're eternally damned, and accept Him by name as your personal Savior. I would think that no matter what name you call Jesus by, if you are born in a different culture, even thinking in terms of another non-Christian religion, that it is still the same higher power. A rose by any other name, a Jesus by any other name, etc. Of course some will disagree. That's the thing about any spiritual belief!

I don't necessarily believe in a personal God, which is what mainstream Christianity believes. My own beliefs are closer to Hinduism / Buddhism / Taoism which I see as all teaching the same core message which I also see when I read the Bible in that frame of mind. Still, if Jesus works for you, more power to you. It is the dominant religion of this culture, so its terms and images are what our minds are conditioned to receive.