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I'm a libertarian, please don't hate me.

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ruveyn
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13 Oct 2012, 6:58 pm

DancingDanny wrote:

History already provides a pretty good reason why you shouldn't trust Monsanto. They made Agent Orange.


History also provides example of democratically elected governments turning on the people. Example: Hitler was democratically elected by the German voters in 1933.

The government of the U.S. permitted slavery from 1789 to 1865. Not so good, yes?

ruveyn



DancingDanny
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13 Oct 2012, 7:09 pm

Yeah, Hitler is exactly why I should distrust democratically elected government and run to the corporations for protection from the Nazi menace. :roll:

I guess it's just a curious historical accident that the hotbed of modern conservatism also played home to the fields of the plantation owners. What were those liberal plantation owners thinking by living in the South and providing aide and comfort to the Communists? Don't they understand just how embarrassing it is to have to argue for slavery being an ill of liberalism?!?

I need a cold bath.



thomas81
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13 Oct 2012, 7:14 pm

is there really such a big difference between libertarianism and fascism?

Both want greater power for the private sector and both dislike organised labour.



thomas81
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13 Oct 2012, 7:16 pm

ruveyn wrote:
If you love your liberty then hate the State or Government. If you can not hate them then at least be suspicious of them and beware of them.


Doesn't work that way, my gung-ho star spangled chum.

One man's liberty is another man's indentured servitude.



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13 Oct 2012, 7:22 pm

thomas81 wrote:
is there really such a big difference between libertarianism and fascism?

Both want greater power for the private sector and both dislike organised labour.


Yeah, it's funny how their brightest, shining examples of the things that they want in economy are Pinochet's Chile and the Stalinist Chinese.



Hopper
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13 Oct 2012, 7:33 pm

Quite. It's a good thing indeed to challenge and limit others' power over you.

How people purport to do this whilst attacking the democratic state and wanting individuals to be able to amass as much money (thus power) as they want without any restraints leaves me hugely confused. Do they genuinely think state power is the only sort of power there can be? Or is it state power is the only form of illegitimate power? The democracy of democracy is bad. The democracy of the market place is good?

Fascism is the logic of libertarianism played out.



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13 Oct 2012, 7:48 pm

Hopper wrote:
Quite. It's a good thing indeed to challenge and limit others' power over you.

How people purport to do this whilst attacking the democratic state and wanting individuals to be able to amass as much money (thus power) as they want without any restraints leaves me hugely confused. Do they genuinely think state power is the only sort of power there can be? Or is it state power is the only form of illegitimate power? The democracy of democracy is bad. The democracy of the market place is good?

Fascism is the logic of libertarianism played out.


And like the point that I raised a long time ago comparing when our democratic leaders are f**k ups compared to the plutcrats that somehow totally fell on def ears or they are just too embarrassed to try to submit an answer. We can vote bad democratic leaders out. With the plutocrats, the peoples only recourse, if history is any indication, is rallying around Lenin or the guillotine! The very thing these psuedo liberty warriors are supposed to stand against. Unbelievable.



ruveyn
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13 Oct 2012, 7:50 pm

thomas81 wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
If you love your liberty then hate the State or Government. If you can not hate them then at least be suspicious of them and beware of them.


Doesn't work that way, my gung-ho star spangled chum.

One man's liberty is another man's indentured servitude.


In the United State involuntary servitude (except for prison labor gangs) is prohibited by the 13 th amendment. No one works for anyone else (legally) with a gun pointed to his head. If some workers are poorly paid they should look for other work. If they can't find it, then tough. But it is NOT indentured servitude or any other kind of servitude. It is labor for a paid wage.

Under U.S. law indenture contracts are not legal.

Even under H-1-B arrangements foreign workers are free to leave any time they wish and go back home, so it is not indenture.

ruveyn



thomas81
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14 Oct 2012, 12:17 pm

ruveyn wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
If you love your liberty then hate the State or Government. If you can not hate them then at least be suspicious of them and beware of them.


Doesn't work that way, my gung-ho star spangled chum.

One man's liberty is another man's indentured servitude.


In the United State involuntary servitude (except for prison labor gangs) is prohibited by the 13 th amendment. No one works for anyone else (legally) with a gun pointed to his head. If some workers are poorly paid they should look for other work. If they can't find it, then tough. But it is NOT indentured servitude or any other kind of servitude. It is labor for a paid wage.

Under U.S. law indenture contracts are not legal.

Even under H-1-B arrangements foreign workers are free to leave any time they wish and go back home, so it is not indenture.

ruveyn


Guns aren't necessary because the 'choice' is often servitude or destitution.

The only thing thats changed is that the whip has been replaced by the threat of the redundancy notice.

ruveyn wrote:
If some workers are poorly paid they should look for other work. If they can't find it, then tough.


If they can't find it, then its not just 'tough'. It's wage slavery.

Was it also 'tough' on the black slaves that had to pick cotton? At least they could count on 3 squares a day and had a guaranteed roof over their heads. Some modern workers don't even have that.

Short of condoning outright slavery, really whats changed?



TM
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14 Oct 2012, 12:31 pm

DancingDanny wrote:

And like the point that I raised a long time ago comparing when our democratic leaders are f**k ups compared to the plutcrats that somehow totally fell on def ears or they are just too embarrassed to try to submit an answer. We can vote bad democratic leaders out. With the plutocrats, the peoples only recourse, if history is any indication, is rallying around Lenin or the guillotine! The very thing these psuedo liberty warriors are supposed to stand against. Unbelievable.


That's not really a point, considering that the f****d up democratic leaders you vote for can eliminate "plutocrat" influence through legislation. You can also get rid of plutocrats by refusing to support their businesses, by setting up your own business free of plutocrat influence and a few other ways.

Just because your average socialist/revolutionist/communist is too stupid to use intellectual means rather than brute force, doesn't mean the methods are not available. You should also keep in mind that if history is an indication of anything, the destruction of one plutocratic set of government means the establishment of another.

I believe it was Orwell who said "You don't establish the dictatorship to protect the revolution, you enact the revolution to establish the dictatorship".



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14 Oct 2012, 12:36 pm

TM wrote:
DancingDanny wrote:

And like the point that I raised a long time ago comparing when our democratic leaders are f**k ups compared to the plutcrats that somehow totally fell on def ears or they are just too embarrassed to try to submit an answer. We can vote bad democratic leaders out. With the plutocrats, the peoples only recourse, if history is any indication, is rallying around Lenin or the guillotine! The very thing these psuedo liberty warriors are supposed to stand against. Unbelievable.


That's not really a point, considering that the f**** up democratic leaders you vote for can eliminate "plutocrat" influence through legislation. You can also get rid of plutocrats by refusing to support their businesses, by setting up your own business free of plutocrat influence and a few other ways.

Just because your average socialist/revolutionist/communist is too stupid to use intellectual means rather than brute force, doesn't mean the methods are not available. You should also keep in mind that if history is an indication of anything, the destruction of one plutocratic set of government means the establishment of another.

I believe it was Orwell who said "You don't establish the dictatorship to protect the revolution, you enact the revolution to establish the dictatorship".


Yes there are other ways but I am talking about what people did in the past when the problems were too big and the fear washed through everyone. I am not personally advocating for the revolution and destruction, I am providing a warning of where this could head. This is the way it could happen if we fail to meaningfully break up their power through legislation and they continue on their course of dismantling the government and consolidating more power in their hands. When it is too late, we will be in their country just like those people were in the Kings country or the Tsar's country. I think you know what Kings do to people that refuse to support them and setting up your own business free of their influence will be nigh impossible.



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14 Oct 2012, 3:16 pm

Governments are slaves, just as we are, to financier-created "inextinguishable debt" Henry Ford talked about.


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TM
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14 Oct 2012, 3:23 pm

ValentineWiggin wrote:
Governments are slaves, just as we are, to financier-created "inextinguishable debt" Henry Ford talked about.


As long as government controls the printing press, there is no such thing as "inextinguishable debt".



ValentineWiggin
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14 Oct 2012, 3:25 pm

TM wrote:
ValentineWiggin wrote:
Governments are slaves, just as we are, to financier-created "inextinguishable debt" Henry Ford talked about.


As long as government controls the printing press, there is no such thing as "inextinguishable debt".


Hence my point.

A group of nameless, unelected, anonymous individuals called the Federal Reserve does, as of, oh... 1913

Said Woodrow Wilson, in regret, "I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my country. A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated Governments in the civilized world no longer a Government by free opinion, no longer a Government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a Government by the opinion and duress of a small group of dominant men."


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They talk and vote as they are directed by Some Man of Property, who has attached their Minds
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TM
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14 Oct 2012, 3:30 pm

ValentineWiggin wrote:
TM wrote:
ValentineWiggin wrote:
Governments are slaves, just as we are, to financier-created "inextinguishable debt" Henry Ford talked about.


As long as government controls the printing press, there is no such thing as "inextinguishable debt".


Hence my point.

A group of nameless, unelected, anonymous individuals called the Federal Reserve does, as of, oh... 1913

Said Woodrow Wilson, in regret, "I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my country. A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated Governments in the civilized world no longer a Government by free opinion, no longer a Government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a Government by the opinion and duress of a small group of dominant men."


The board of the Fed is picked by the President, so your argument could just as well apply to the "non-elected" "unknown group" that controls the military.



ValentineWiggin
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14 Oct 2012, 3:54 pm

TM wrote:
ValentineWiggin wrote:
TM wrote:
ValentineWiggin wrote:
Governments are slaves, just as we are, to financier-created "inextinguishable debt" Henry Ford talked about.


As long as government controls the printing press, there is no such thing as "inextinguishable debt".


Hence my point.

A group of nameless, unelected, anonymous individuals called the Federal Reserve does, as of, oh... 1913

Said Woodrow Wilson, in regret, "I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my country. A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated Governments in the civilized world no longer a Government by free opinion, no longer a Government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a Government by the opinion and duress of a small group of dominant men."


The board of the Fed is picked by the President, so your argument could just as well apply to the "non-elected" "unknown group" that controls the military.


Yup.


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"Such is the Frailty
of the human Heart, that very few Men, who have no Property, have any Judgment of their own.
They talk and vote as they are directed by Some Man of Property, who has attached their Minds
to his Interest."