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marshall
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21 Oct 2012, 11:16 am

enrico_dandolo wrote:
marshall wrote:
enrico_dandolo wrote:
"Intellectuals", as a group, are generally more opposed to "manual worker" than to "emotional people".

A poet is an intellectual.

An "intellectual" is a theorist as opposed to a pragmatist. The two groups tend to have mutual contempt for each other. The former are called useless while the latter are called dull. Think pure mathematicians and philosophers vs. doctors and lawyers.

I don't know if I would say doctors are intellectuals. Very probably yes. However, lawyers certainly are, in my opinion.

Anyway. This debate is pointless. It is a battle of definitions.

My point was doctors and lawyers are not intellectuals. They are professionals. Intellectual != smartness. Intellectuals don't just apply knowledge other people have already derived for them. They derive their own knowledge.



GGPViper
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21 Oct 2012, 12:22 pm

marshall wrote:
enrico_dandolo wrote:
marshall wrote:
enrico_dandolo wrote:
"Intellectuals", as a group, are generally more opposed to "manual worker" than to "emotional people".

A poet is an intellectual.

An "intellectual" is a theorist as opposed to a pragmatist. The two groups tend to have mutual contempt for each other. The former are called useless while the latter are called dull. Think pure mathematicians and philosophers vs. doctors and lawyers.

I don't know if I would say doctors are intellectuals. Very probably yes. However, lawyers certainly are, in my opinion.

Anyway. This debate is pointless. It is a battle of definitions.

My point was doctors and lawyers are not intellectuals. They are professionals. Intellectual != smartness. Intellectuals don't just apply knowledge other people have already derived for them. They derive their own knowledge.


Considering that many doctors are also scientists who discover new knowledge, the term seems to be inadequate.

Note how many people on this list are trained physicians:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_No ... r_Medicine

And where does the knowledge of lawyers come from?

And finally (from another thread):

nominalist wrote:
Well, arguments about semantics can only go so far.



TM
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21 Oct 2012, 12:39 pm

enrico_dandolo wrote:

Anyway. This debate is pointless. It is a battle of definitions.


Every debate on WP.net is. I could post a thread entitled "Liberals are a**holes" and half the posts in the thread would be about how I define, "Liberal", "are" and "a**holes".



marshall
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21 Oct 2012, 3:11 pm

GGPViper wrote:
marshall wrote:
enrico_dandolo wrote:
marshall wrote:
enrico_dandolo wrote:
"Intellectuals", as a group, are generally more opposed to "manual worker" than to "emotional people".

A poet is an intellectual.

An "intellectual" is a theorist as opposed to a pragmatist. The two groups tend to have mutual contempt for each other. The former are called useless while the latter are called dull. Think pure mathematicians and philosophers vs. doctors and lawyers.

I don't know if I would say doctors are intellectuals. Very probably yes. However, lawyers certainly are, in my opinion.

Anyway. This debate is pointless. It is a battle of definitions.

My point was doctors and lawyers are not intellectuals. They are professionals. Intellectual != smartness. Intellectuals don't just apply knowledge other people have already derived for them. They derive their own knowledge.


Considering that many doctors are also scientists who discover new knowledge, the term seems to be inadequate.

Note how many people on this list are trained physicians:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_No ... r_Medicine

I never said there weren't people who have their feet in both worlds. It's just that in general there are a lot more doctors who don't advance the body of human knowledge than who do.

Quote:
And finally (from another thread):

nominalist wrote:
Well, arguments about semantics can only go so far.

Without such arguments half the topics on WP would be gone. Besides, coming up with my own definitions based on my understanding of how a word is often used is a lot more fun than quoting from a dictionary. I think the term "intellectual" has gone out of fashion anyways as it's seen as pretentious and elitist.



marshall
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21 Oct 2012, 3:32 pm

TM wrote:
enrico_dandolo wrote:

Anyway. This debate is pointless. It is a battle of definitions.


Every debate on WP.net is. I could post a thread entitled "Liberals are a**holes" and half the posts in the thread would be about how I define, "Liberal", "are" and "a**holes".


How about, "opinionated people who don't agree with me are a**holes". That's what it really comes down to. The only way to not appear an a**hole to someone else in the world is to keep quit and mind your own business. But even that isn't completely fool proof, you can be an a**hole to someone without saying a word just by owning certain things, dressing yourself a certain way, or having a certain posture or tone of voice.

Maybe you'd be happier if this was a typical un-moderated NT forum. Then instead of arguing over the definitions of "Liberal", "are", and "a**holes", you'd have a thread that's 100% cheap point scoring, smart-ass remarks, and personal attacks, with the occasional talk of wanting to meet someone in a dark alley so you can pound them unconscious or spit on them as you watch them die.



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21 Oct 2012, 4:10 pm

Obviously medicine attracts very smart people and some of the very best medical school grads go into science/research. But that doesn't mean physicians are thus ipso facto intellectuals.

I'd say physicians and lawyers who go into research/academia should generally qualify as intellectuals, but that's a minority of either profession.



TM
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21 Oct 2012, 4:27 pm

marshall wrote:
TM wrote:
enrico_dandolo wrote:

Anyway. This debate is pointless. It is a battle of definitions.


Every debate on WP.net is. I could post a thread entitled "Liberals are a**holes" and half the posts in the thread would be about how I define, "Liberal", "are" and "a**holes".


How about, "opinionated people who don't agree with me are a**holes". That's what it really comes down to. The only way to not appear an a**hole to someone else in the world is to keep quit and mind your own business. But even that isn't completely fool proof, you can be an a**hole to someone without saying a word just by owning certain things, dressing yourself a certain way, or having a certain posture or tone of voice.


How about not derailing a point for once? A majority of your posts give me the urge to post Image


Marshall wrote:
Maybe you'd be happier if this was a typical un-moderated NT forum. Then instead of arguing over the definitions of "Liberal", "are", and "a**holes", you'd have a thread that's 100% cheap point scoring, smart-ass remarks, and personal attacks, with the occasional talk of wanting to meet someone in a dark alley so you can pound them unconscious or spit on them as you watch them die.


I'd be happier if people used words the way they are defined in a dictionary, not in the way they've defined them in their heads, at that specific moment, for a specific argument in order to not appear completely illogical.

Secondly, like most of the threads here on WP doesn't break down to cheap point scoring and smart-ass remarks.



marshall
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21 Oct 2012, 5:05 pm

TM wrote:
marshall wrote:
TM wrote:
enrico_dandolo wrote:

Anyway. This debate is pointless. It is a battle of definitions.


Every debate on WP.net is. I could post a thread entitled "Liberals are a**holes" and half the posts in the thread would be about how I define, "Liberal", "are" and "a**holes".


How about, "opinionated people who don't agree with me are a**holes". That's what it really comes down to. The only way to not appear an a**hole to someone else in the world is to keep quit and mind your own business. But even that isn't completely fool proof, you can be an a**hole to someone without saying a word just by owning certain things, dressing yourself a certain way, or having a certain posture or tone of voice.

How about not derailing a point for once?

I wouldn't bother "derailing" your point if you had a half-way interesting point in the first place.
Quote:
A majority of your posts give me the urge to post Image

After you.

Quote:
Marshall wrote:
Maybe you'd be happier if this was a typical un-moderated NT forum. Then instead of arguing over the definitions of "Liberal", "are", and "a**holes", you'd have a thread that's 100% cheap point scoring, smart-ass remarks, and personal attacks, with the occasional talk of wanting to meet someone in a dark alley so you can pound them unconscious or spit on them as you watch them die.


I'd be happier if people used words the way they are defined in a dictionary, not in the way they've defined them in their heads, at that specific moment, for a specific argument in order to not appear completely illogical.

I'm not being paid to make you happier. I don't sell narcissistic supply for free.

Quote:
Secondly, like most of the threads here on WP doesn't break down to cheap point scoring and smart-ass remarks.

It's hard to resist after a while with people like you.



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21 Oct 2012, 6:11 pm

Albeit this is a crude and imperfect measure but what if one wanted to count the number of "intellectuals" in the US. What occupations would one include? Obviously university faculty, who else? Writers? Teachers? Artists and performers (and if so, which ones?) Scientists?

The purpose is not to say the be all and end all is one's occupation but this would be research about social role etc. and it's pretty hard to quantify otherwise.



Last edited by Berlin on 21 Oct 2012, 6:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

DancingDanny
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21 Oct 2012, 6:15 pm

I bet the majority of this "liberals are so intolerant" meme that conservatives and libertarians pass around is derived because a liberal argued with them then it turned into a flame war.



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21 Oct 2012, 7:06 pm

Fnord wrote:
An intellectual is merely someone who has found something more interesting than sex. He is like a person in a library who, upon discovering that an attractive person is seated nearby, looks first at what book that other person is reading, rather than what that other person is wearing.

In essence, an intellectual is one who primarily uses his or her intellect to work, study, reflect, speculate, or ask and answer questions about a wide variety of different ideas. Being a genius does not make one an intellectual, nor does an advanced education. Using the reasoning capabilities of one's mind (however great or small they may be) in preference to feelings and emotions is what makes one an intellectual.

To do otherwise is to earn the pejorative label of "Emo".


well said as always!! !!
:D



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21 Oct 2012, 7:13 pm

Kurgan wrote:
Fnord wrote:
In essence, an intellectual is one who primarily uses his or her intellect to work, study, reflect, speculate, or ask and answer questions about a wide variety of different ideas. Being a genius does not make one an intellectual, nor does an advanced education. Using the reasoning capabilities of one's mind (however great or small they may be) in preference to feelings and emotions is what makes one an intellectual.


To get an advanced education (engineering, math, economics or something challenging--not something useless like social studies), one has to be an intellectual.

Intellectualism and feelings are not mutually exclusive. I feel that I master something when I get good grades, which further fuels my desire to use my abilities. I also feel that what I do when it comes to reflect over physics or program stuff is "fun".

Quote:
To do otherwise is to earn the pejorative label of "Emo".


Emo bashing is so 2008. Now that they're driven back to the shadows, we're going to bring down the hipsters.


This isn't true at all. I know guy with an advanced degree in engineering. He is a Sara Palin fan and basically has the same worldview as her. Would you consider that an intellectual? If Sara Palin had an engineering degree but everything else about her was the same, would that make her an intellectual?

I would even say my physicians aren't intellectuals. Intellectualism is more than just learning and retaining knowledge.


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21 Oct 2012, 7:36 pm

blackelk wrote:
Kurgan wrote:
Fnord wrote:
In essence, an intellectual is one who primarily uses his or her intellect to work, study, reflect, speculate, or ask and answer questions about a wide variety of different ideas. Being a genius does not make one an intellectual, nor does an advanced education. Using the reasoning capabilities of one's mind (however great or small they may be) in preference to feelings and emotions is what makes one an intellectual.


To get an advanced education (engineering, math, economics or something challenging--not something useless like social studies), one has to be an intellectual.

Intellectualism and feelings are not mutually exclusive. I feel that I master something when I get good grades, which further fuels my desire to use my abilities. I also feel that what I do when it comes to reflect over physics or program stuff is "fun".

Quote:
To do otherwise is to earn the pejorative label of "Emo".


Emo bashing is so 2008. Now that they're driven back to the shadows, we're going to bring down the hipsters.


This isn't true at all. I know guy with an advanced degree in engineering. He is a Sara Palin fan and basically has the same worldview as her. Would you consider that an intellectual? If Sara Palin had an engineering degree but everything else about her was the same, would that make her an intellectual?

I would even say my physicians aren't intellectuals. Intellectualism is more than just learning and retaining knowledge.


You're making the assumption that he's not an intellectual by the fact that he supports Sarah Palin? Plenty of intellectuals supported Obama, but everything that was wrong during Bush (apart from the real estate bubble and the president's lack of charisma) is still wrong today.

To get a degree in something useful, you have to do more than just retaining what you've read; you also need to apply it and solve problems independently. This is one of the key differences between a high school diploma and a college degree.



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21 Oct 2012, 7:42 pm

Kurgan wrote:
blackelk wrote:
Kurgan wrote:
Fnord wrote:
In essence, an intellectual is one who primarily uses his or her intellect to work, study, reflect, speculate, or ask and answer questions about a wide variety of different ideas. Being a genius does not make one an intellectual, nor does an advanced education. Using the reasoning capabilities of one's mind (however great or small they may be) in preference to feelings and emotions is what makes one an intellectual.


To get an advanced education (engineering, math, economics or something challenging--not something useless like social studies), one has to be an intellectual.

Intellectualism and feelings are not mutually exclusive. I feel that I master something when I get good grades, which further fuels my desire to use my abilities. I also feel that what I do when it comes to reflect over physics or program stuff is "fun".

Quote:
To do otherwise is to earn the pejorative label of "Emo".


Emo bashing is so 2008. Now that they're driven back to the shadows, we're going to bring down the hipsters.


This isn't true at all. I know guy with an advanced degree in engineering. He is a Sara Palin fan and basically has the same worldview as her. Would you consider that an intellectual? If Sara Palin had an engineering degree but everything else about her was the same, would that make her an intellectual?

I would even say my physicians aren't intellectuals. Intellectualism is more than just learning and retaining knowledge.


You're making the assumption that he's not an intellectual by the fact that he supports Sarah Palin? Plenty of intellectuals supported Obama, but everything that was wrong during Bush (apart from the real estate bubble and the president's lack of charisma) is still wrong today.

To get a degree in something useful, you have to do more than just retaining what you've read; you also need to apply it and solve problems independently. This is one of the key differences between a high school diploma and a college degree.


Why do you keep using "usefulness" as a key criteria?

Monkey see monkey do. Learning and applying knowledge does not make one an intellectual. Even the lowliest professions learn and apply knowledge in their jobs.

The guy I'm referring to is about as deep as a puddle, that's why he is not an intellectual, and that's also why he supports Palin. Do you consider Palin an intellectual?


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21 Oct 2012, 9:12 pm

marshall wrote:
enrico_dandolo wrote:
marshall wrote:
enrico_dandolo wrote:
"Intellectuals", as a group, are generally more opposed to "manual worker" than to "emotional people".

A poet is an intellectual.

An "intellectual" is a theorist as opposed to a pragmatist. The two groups tend to have mutual contempt for each other. The former are called useless while the latter are called dull. Think pure mathematicians and philosophers vs. doctors and lawyers.

I don't know if I would say doctors are intellectuals. Very probably yes. However, lawyers certainly are, in my opinion.

Anyway. This debate is pointless. It is a battle of definitions.

My point was doctors and lawyers are not intellectuals. They are professionals. Intellectual != smartness. Intellectuals don't just apply knowledge other people have already derived for them. They derive their own knowledge.



Yes. It is creative thinking - "theoretical."

I'd think these new bits of information stem from reflection. It'd have to be an ability to 'see' a pattern and using analogies to fit it into something to be new or creative. My first thought would be a person with high visual spatial ability along with a desire 'to know', hence a reflective personality.



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21 Oct 2012, 10:16 pm

blackelk wrote:
Why do you keep using "usefulness" as a key criteria?

Monkey see monkey do. Learning and applying knowledge does not make one an intellectual. Even the lowliest professions learn and apply knowledge in their jobs.

The guy I'm referring to is about as deep as a puddle, that's why he is not an intellectual, and that's also why he supports Palin. Do you consider Palin an intellectual?


I agree. There is no degree or level of intelligence cutoff that makes one ipso-facto an intellectual.

I mean if we add anybody with a degree in science and engineering, plus all holders of master's degree or higher in other subjects, plus physicians, dentists, lawyers etc. - we're talking a group than what is normally referred to as intellectuals.

(BTW apparently engineers are quite prominent in the intelligent design movement! It's a qualification that's ultimately irrelevant on the question of evolution by natural selection but much of the public thinks that engineers are "scientists" and the opinion of one "scientist" is as good as another.)