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GoonSquad
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17 Nov 2012, 5:32 am

DW_a_mom wrote:
GoonSquad wrote:
^^^ Yes, I agree small businesses really aren't the problem, but they aren't a solution either.

I do understand the problems facing small business owners... The thing is, they don't produce good jobs, and we should not, as a matter of public policy, count on them to create jobs for breadwinners...

In the 70s, 80s and 90s there was a name for guys who tried to support their families by working in pizza joints... We called them failures. Those jobs were for moonlighters, teenagers, and students.

I'm not against small business, but I see no real reason to kiss their asses.


How can you say small businesses don't produce good jobs? Every good business started as ... a small business. Small business is the heart and soul of innovation and change in this country.

Small businesses are, of course, as varied as the people who live in this country, and some produce good jobs, and some don't. Some drive the economic engine forward, and some serve as a disappointing life lesson to their owners. Some have owners who are good to their people, and some don't. But more often than not small business owners, in my experience, do care about their people for the simple reason that in the smaller environment they KNOW their people. They'll compromise to meet employees in the middle: if they only need workers part time, they'll try to make it possible for those workers to also hold other jobs. Which is unlike a chain like Walmart.


I can say that because the typical small business job has low pay and no benefits. We cannot maintain a middle class with those kinds of jobs.

As a matter of public policy we need to encourage the development of industries not single businesses. We need good employment for the masses. We need more Henry Fords not more Joe-the-plumbers.


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17 Nov 2012, 11:10 am

GoonSquad wrote:

As a matter of public policy we need to encourage the development of industries not single businesses. We need good employment for the masses. We need more Henry Fords not more Joe-the-plumbers.


Every industry started out as a single small business or a sparse cluster of small business. The light bulb industry started out with just Thomas Edison's company. The distinction you make is not valid. It also invites government to come in and pick winners and losers. Government is singularly incompetent to make sound economic judgements. Aside from garden variety corruption and bribery the sort of people who make it their business to tell other people their business are generally incompetent in producing anything of value. Government attracts power trippers, criminals, incompetent can't-do folks.

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17 Nov 2012, 6:10 pm

ruveyn wrote:
GoonSquad wrote:

As a matter of public policy we need to encourage the development of industries not single businesses. We need good employment for the masses. We need more Henry Fords not more Joe-the-plumbers.


Every industry started out as a single small business or a sparse cluster of small business. The light bulb industry started out with just Thomas Edison's company. The distinction you make is not valid. It also invites government to come in and pick winners and losers. Government is singularly incompetent to make sound economic judgements. Aside from garden variety corruption and bribery the sort of people who make it their business to tell other people their business are generally incompetent in producing anything of value. Government attracts power trippers, criminals, incompetent can't-do folks.

ruveyn



What I'm saying is perfectly valid... You don't coddle a bunch of small businesses that create near worthless jobs and are apt to fail anyway...

You support those firms and industries that make it over the hump, so to speak.... The ones that have survived the tests of the free market and are profitable enough to create good jobs.

Seriously, if we begin to depend on mom and pop shop jobs for the masses, American is doomed to third world level poverty.

PS


Look at my original post. I'm not hostile to small business, but I am calling BS on the inordinate reverence Americans have developed for them...


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ruveyn
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17 Nov 2012, 7:33 pm

GoonSquad wrote:
You support those firms and industries that make it over the hump, so to speak.... The ones that have survived the tests of the free market and are profitable enough to create good jobs.

..


You want to support a firm? Then buy their goods and services. Subsidies to businesses is a kind of corruption and should be done away with in the entirety. If the taxpayers want to support a firm then let the taxpayers buy what the firm has to sell.

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GoonSquad
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17 Nov 2012, 8:20 pm

ruveyn wrote:
GoonSquad wrote:
You support those firms and industries that make it over the hump, so to speak.... The ones that have survived the tests of the free market and are profitable enough to create good jobs.

..




You want to support a firm? Then buy their goods and services. Subsidies to businesses is a kind of corruption and should be done away with in the entirety. If the taxpayers want to support a firm then let the taxpayers buy what the firm has to sell.

ruveyn


Well, actually I'm looking to support good behavior more than firms.

If a successful firm wants low taxes, they must pay high wages and provide benefits to employees.

We do not lower taxes for "job creators" by eliminating Medicaid for their employees...

No free lunches, right?


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17 Nov 2012, 9:00 pm

John_Browning wrote:
visagrunt wrote:
The second is a minimum wage that enables a person working 40 hours per week to earn above the poverty line.

All that does is drive up inflation.

Weird that rising the low wages of worker is blamed for inflation but not the insane rising of CEO wages.


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18 Nov 2012, 2:16 am

Tollorin wrote:
Weird that rising the low wages of worker is blamed for inflation but not the insane rising of CEO wages.

the working class has been a convenient scapegoat for the higher classes for many decades now. blame everything on those shiftless slovenly people on the wrong side of the tracks, never mind that man behind the curtain.



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18 Nov 2012, 4:44 am

auntblabby wrote:
Tollorin wrote:
Weird that rising the low wages of worker is blamed for inflation but not the insane rising of CEO wages.

the working class has been a convenient scapegoat for the higher classes for many decades now. blame everything on those shiftless slovenly people on the wrong side of the tracks, never mind that man behind the curtain.

And class warfare is a cop-out for people that won't take personal responsibility.


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18 Nov 2012, 5:56 am

John_Browning wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
Tollorin wrote:
Weird that rising the low wages of worker is blamed for inflation but not the insane rising of CEO wages.

the working class has been a convenient scapegoat for the higher classes for many decades now. blame everything on those shiftless slovenly people on the wrong side of the tracks, never mind that man behind the curtain.

And class warfare is a cop-out for people that won't take personal responsibility.

and statements like THAT are just a cop-out for randian social darwinists who don't give a good goddamn about anybody other than themselves. :roll: some people cannot take "personal responsibility" which is just a horatio alger code word for "jerking oneself up by one's own bootstraps" which is physically impossible, btw.



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18 Nov 2012, 6:13 am

There are good jobs, government workers want to be paid like the hard driven, educated, talented people who get good jobs, but they cannot perform like them.

Many industries are just out of range, as it costs hundreds of millions to even start, then hiring the cream, and Fortune 500 fail trying to broaden their business.

So things are made offshore so cheap there is no way to do it here.

So what is available? Local food service is up against national chains, Walmart and Big Box stores have killed retailing, and the available workforce failed to catch that train. They are unskilled at the things needed to launch most business, and way behind on the pattern of organization needed to pull something together.

That anyone can use them any time is amazing.

How to produce high pay, learn something useful.

They do not, they went to school and learned everything important.

Almost everything I use is less than ten years old, it makes ideas I had twenty years ago possible,

Workers might know the name of something, and think that is enough, but how to keep it running, make it productive, that is beyond them.

People want the old jobs, those were taken by robots, they want a small job, fast food is too complex for most, learning to cook fries is as far as they go. Ten people work there and only one can manage the place.

With that to work with, we will not create $40 an hour jobs.

Business is a skill, most do not have it, and for those that do, the big companies are hiring.

I, like everyone else in business am always looking. Better ways to do the job, holes in the market I can fill, and people who can open their mind to new ideas, because that is not taught in school,

There is a set limit to what I can invest, everything, I have limited time and telling someone what you told them yesterday does not last. How quickly I can get it done results in a profit or loss,

People went to school to learn how to learn, but I am not another school that is going to spend years teaching. As an employer, the first thing I notice is who treats me like a parent, a teacher, and tries all of their mopeing ways of avoiding cleaning their room or doing their homework. It is not like that out here, get to it or get out.

I am not allowed to give grades, like your paycheck for this week is minus $73. I have to stick to my side of the deal.

You have to get rid of them, or they will get rid of you.

People with drive, self education, learn to deal with the world. Mostly they find a way to make good money. Years ago I was a mechanic, a very good one, who fixed european cars. I learned by working on cars, reading books, had my tools, and knew what I was doing. I made money.

Twenty years ago it was computers, printers, and I applied the same skills, I read the book. I made good money.

I was selling my skills, and I have no idea what a lot of the workforce is selling. They act like they were assigned to my class, and I am stuck with them. They have no interest in what the business does, and what it takes to be profitable.

The old rule was it took one lead worker to keep three going, then one office manager to keep the lead workers going. Above that were higher managers who kept three office managers going.

Now it seems every worker needs constant supervision. It does not work.

The better people went with the big companies, or got their own thing going. A good deal of the current population is unemployable.

It is not an employer problem, try a Social Worker.

The return of good jobs comes after the return of good workers. People who learn what is being done, do it, are given raises and promoted. That is what it takes to make money, and any evil employer would want to keep workers who get the job done.

This same government that is saying employers must provide health care, well that will only be for the employed. That will be less, and the good of it is some fast food chains will be cutting hours, hiring only part time, or going out of business, as my last double wopper meal cost $9.

So the government can support them, give them health care, but after failing at education, you cannot make them employable.

I have spent years and much money learning to do something I think will be profitable, I am not going to be a baby sitter, means of lifelong support, when I can buy a robot cheaper.

So who will pay for unlimited health care? I can write off the robot, and make my own repairs, and when it needs a heart replaced, that is just a board. Healthy people who retire are expected to have a $200,000 health care cost. Non working are going to cost a lot more.

It is not the rich that produce, it is the productive. Tax high earnings, I know lots of productive ways around it. Burden me with babysitting, I will have less and only the most productive employed.

Seeing to the health, education, and welfare of all the people is why we have government. They went for Defense Spending. Spending fifty times what the whole world spends, has not made us safer. It has made us broke and deep in debt, with the worst schools, health care, and local economic development in the industrial world.

Government, Employees, and the non working, cannot make the productive people pay for what has been neglected for thirty years, It is just pointing the finger away from the parties that sold out the country, took bribes from defense contractors, took union votes in exchange for not demanding quality education, it can be done, lots of other countries do it, and universal health care, which Nixon proposed, and Congress refused, because Medical, Drugs, pay bribes. Now Cuba has better health care.

Back then it was called a Commie Plot, It was Un American to want National Health Care. Most women stayed home, raised families, and the economy was good, we lived well on one worker per family, and they were productive. Taxes were high on high earners, the debt was manageable, and new technology was being developed, producing full employment.

Wall Street was regulated, so were the Banks.

The country got what it voted for, what it deserved, $16 Trillion in debt, and now as Malcom X said, "The chickens will come home to roost."



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18 Nov 2012, 12:42 pm

Inventor wrote:
.

The country got what it voted for, what it deserved, $16 Trillion in debt, and now as Malcom X said, "The chickens will come home to roost."


That they have. As the twig is bent, so grows the tree.

60 years of pretending money is magic paper stuff which grows on trees has produced this painful state.

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18 Nov 2012, 4:24 pm

GoonSquad, I'm not sure you know what a "small business" is. I've made my career in small businesses, even trying my hand at starting a few, and I LOVE this segment of the market. I can't imagine working with the stifling bureaucracy my sister does at a fortune 500 company. Granted, she has better benefits, but I have better pay, a more direct relationship between my talents and my rewards, and a more direct relationship between my effort and the success of the company. I love all that, I can't imagine it any other way. Small business is a lot more than the mom and pop restaurant down the street. It is CPA firms and doctors, architects and graphic designers, handmade jewelry and construction, and much more. It is and always will be a huge part of the American dream. It is the segment of the market that responds fastest to changes in tastes and takes the most risks. It is where instinct still rules over market analysis. It is the innovative force in society.

Granted, owners vary a lot in their level of caring about their workforce and their level of talent in making their business succeed, but you get to interview your boss just as much as he interviews you, and a smart person who works in this segment of the market doesn't tie their professional life to someone they aren't compatible with and don't believe in.


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18 Nov 2012, 9:48 pm

DW_a_mom wrote:
GoonSquad, I'm not sure you know what a "small business" is. I've made my career in small businesses, even trying my hand at starting a few, and I LOVE this segment of the market. I can't imagine working with the stifling bureaucracy my sister does at a fortune 500 company. Granted, she has better benefits, but I have better pay, a more direct relationship between my talents and my rewards, and a more direct relationship between my effort and the success of the company. I love all that, I can't imagine it any other way. Small business is a lot more than the mom and pop restaurant down the street. It is CPA firms and doctors, architects and graphic designers, handmade jewelry and construction, and much more. It is and always will be a huge part of the American dream. It is the segment of the market that responds fastest to changes in tastes and takes the most risks. It is where instinct still rules over market analysis. It is the innovative force in society.

Granted, owners vary a lot in their level of caring about their workforce and their level of talent in making their business succeed, but you get to interview your boss just as much as he interviews you, and a smart person who works in this segment of the market doesn't tie their professional life to someone they aren't compatible with and don't believe in.


The best jobs I've had were with small businesses and I enjoyed them for the same reasons you do... I worked for small, family owned manufacturing companies.

I was always paid and treated very well because I had a skill the owner desperately needed. However, my less skilled coworkers were not treated very well at all.

My beef with small businesses is not personal. I just don't believe America can maintain a healthy middle class with these sorts of jobs. It is also becoming a moral issue. I simply cannot abide all the exploitation I see going on.

If you are a professional or a skilled tradesman, you can do okay. If you're just the ordinary average persons trying to make ends meet, these are bad times.


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18 Nov 2012, 10:22 pm

GoonSquad wrote:
I was always paid and treated very well because I had a skill the owner desperately needed. However, my less skilled coworkers were not treated very well at all. My beef with small businesses is not personal. I just don't believe America can maintain a healthy middle class with these sorts of jobs. It is also becoming a moral issue. I simply cannot abide all the exploitation I see going on. If you are a professional or a skilled tradesman, you can do okay. If you're just the ordinary average persons trying to make ends meet, these are bad times.

QFT+! the successful in life are totally clueless about the rest of us not similarly talented folks. the successful types simply don't comprehend how anybody else could not easily duplicate what they have done, and IMHO they will never understand anything outside of their own successful experience.



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19 Nov 2012, 12:54 pm

auntblabby wrote:
GoonSquad wrote:
I was always paid and treated very well because I had a skill the owner desperately needed. However, my less skilled coworkers were not treated very well at all. My beef with small businesses is not personal. I just don't believe America can maintain a healthy middle class with these sorts of jobs. It is also becoming a moral issue. I simply cannot abide all the exploitation I see going on. If you are a professional or a skilled tradesman, you can do okay. If you're just the ordinary average persons trying to make ends meet, these are bad times.

QFT+! the successful in life are totally clueless about the rest of us not similarly talented folks. the successful types simply don't comprehend how anybody else could not easily duplicate what they have done, and IMHO they will never understand anything outside of their own successful experience.


Point taken. I am "skilled." We don't have many "low-skill" jobs in this company so I don't have the benefit of knowing how they would be treated. I do know that the support staff say they are treated differently, but it is this intangible way that isn't obvious to me, I just get it from our conservations. I make sure that *I* treat them the same as I do the professional staff, we can't do without them.


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20 Nov 2012, 1:46 pm

auntblabby wrote:
QFT+! the successful in life are totally clueless about the rest of us not similarly talented folks. the successful types simply don't comprehend how anybody else could not easily duplicate what they have done, and IMHO they will never understand anything outside of their own successful experience.


The solution is clear. Read "Harrison Bergeron" by Kurt Vonegut. In the Vonegut dystopia the successful types are handicapped by physical devices so that they are equalized with the less successful types. The head of Equalization is the Handicapper General.

Successful runners should have lead weights locked onto their feet etc. etc.

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