Anyone out there with leftist special interests?

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thomas81
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09 Nov 2012, 7:11 pm

androbot2084 wrote:

You just have the elites perform the menial tasks.

Not that either. You reform Society into two groups - Professionals and students.

All menial work is carried out by robots; automated production lines and the like.

Anything that cannot be automated is carried out by a human being. Anyone who is not working is studying.

Currency is replaced by a tangible trading form called 'energy accounting'.

DancingDanny
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09 Nov 2012, 7:16 pm

thomas81 wrote:

androbot2084 wrote:

You just have the elites perform the menial tasks.

You mean like the two groups in Marxism, the Proletariat and the Bourgeoisie?

androbot2084
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09 Nov 2012, 7:19 pm

How about these 2 groups, the choosers and the chosen.

TM
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09 Nov 2012, 7:20 pm

thomas81 wrote:

TM wrote:

Ok, now that you've linked the factual information, you make the argument as to why this is the fault of capitalism.

The point which you've missed, is that without barely an exception the countries who are afflicted by these high poverty related death rates follow the blessed market economic model that you appraise so highly.

I don't miss points, you failed to make one.

Angola : Most of it's economy is tied up in oil, which is controlled by Sonangol Group a conglomerate which is controlled/owned by the Angolan government.
Burundi : Less than 2% of the people have bank accounts, somehow that makes it hard to argue that banksters and the market is to blame.
Congo, I'm quite frankly not sure how to classify.
Rwanda is mainly pre-industrial with little foreign investment.
São Tomé and Príncipe where the state owns most production facilities.
Cameroon is again hard to classify, due to being somewhere between industrial development and pre-industrial agriculture.

I could go through all the countries in the list, but what is common for them is a high level of "fingerfucking" by the government in every aspect of the economy (where developed) and in the remaining countries defining them as socialist or capitalist is near impossible due to their under-developed level. The Soviet Union had (black) markets as well, that doesn't make it's policy capitalist.

androbot2084
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09 Nov 2012, 7:23 pm

Underdevelopment is no excuse. Ancient Israel had socialized medicine and they used magic when they didn't have the technology.

MarketAndChurch
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09 Nov 2012, 7:29 pm

androbot2084 wrote:

Ancient Israel had socialized medicine . Tithes or a ten percent tax were paid to the priests who were in charge of healthcare.

Tithes means justice. 10% means that you can commit yourselves on behalf of charity and still be able to feed your family and live your life.

They did not have our 40% business tax plus 30-whatever % personal income tax plus gas taxes plus taxes at every part of the production cycle. They did not have insurance requirements that if one doesn't have could land them in financial ruin. We should still give 10% of our income but the world today is making it much harder to give charitably, and the state is trying to replace much of that role through redistribution.

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thomas81
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09 Nov 2012, 7:35 pm

DancingDanny wrote:

thomas81 wrote:

androbot2084 wrote:

You just have the elites perform the menial tasks.

You mean like the two groups in Marxism, the Proletariat and the Bourgeoisie?

No, the proletarian and bourgeoisie are socio-economic classes.

It is impossible to have social or economic disparity in an abundancy society that uses a energy crediting system in lieu of money or debt.

thomas81
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09 Nov 2012, 7:36 pm

androbot2084 wrote:

How about these 2 groups, the choosers and the chosen.

I think you're being deliberately flippant now.

androbot2084
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09 Nov 2012, 7:38 pm

The 10 percent plus offerings went to the Priests. The King had his own taxes because there was separation of church and state.

thomas81
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09 Nov 2012, 7:47 pm

TM wrote:

Burundi : Less than 2% of the people have bank accounts, somehow that makes it hard to argue that banksters and the market is to blame.

The 2% that do no doubt have an awful lot of holdings in Burundi's land and industrial infrastucture. They scratch the backs of the bankers and have their governments in their back pockets.

The problem isnt government in principle, the problem is when a select few become so rich they are able to influence the government through bribery.

TM wrote:

Congo, I'm quite frankly not sure how to classify.
Rwanda is mainly pre-industrial with little foreign investment.
São Tomé and Príncipe where the state owns most production facilities.
Cameroon is again hard to classify, due to being somewhere between industrial development and pre-industrial agriculture.

How about Somalia?

Last I checked the governmentless utopia wasnt working out too well.

TM wrote:

I could go through all the countries in the list, but what is common for them is a high level of "f****" by the government in every aspect of the economy (where developed) and in the remaining countries defining them as socialist or capitalist is near impossible due to their under-developed level. The Soviet Union had (black) markets as well, that doesn't make it's policy capitalist.

If you arent able or refuse to see the influence and activities that western corporations are having in these places, then really I give up trying to convince you.

In Latin American, the ecological damage caused by Coca Cola and their dealings with extreme right wing paramiltiaries in Colombia is well documented by our media.

These African countries you mentioned are but the tip of the iceberg. What about the floundering free market economies of South East Asia? What about the Nike and Reebok shoe sweatshops? Thailand, Philippines etc where large western companies have stakes in human misery? If anything these problems are exacerbated by lack of government intervention, not in spite of.

Last edited by thomas81 on 09 Nov 2012, 7:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

DancingDanny
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09 Nov 2012, 7:48 pm

thomas81 wrote:

DancingDanny wrote:

thomas81 wrote:

androbot2084 wrote:

You just have the elites perform the menial tasks.

You mean like the two groups in Marxism, the Proletariat and the Bourgeoisie?

It's very possible and it begins by the organization of society into two different groups in the first place. You organize the groups, call them the Bourgeoisie and Proletarian or the Professionals and Students. Separate them, empathy lessens then eventually the groups will develop their identities and interests and will believe any ugly thing about the other then decisions about the distribution of abundant goods will be made with these identities, interests and beliefs influencing the outcome. You will have abundance for the powerful group and little else for the disenfranchised.

Last edited by DancingDanny on 09 Nov 2012, 7:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

androbot2084
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09 Nov 2012, 7:50 pm

I had a dream that I was in this Utopia and everyone was either a chooser or one of the chosen and the question was asked which group was more elite.

thomas81
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09 Nov 2012, 7:56 pm

DancingDanny wrote:

The beourgeoisie and proletarian came through organically through millenia of class antagonism. It wasnt deliberate or planned on the part of the antagonists but it happened not for practical planning reasons but solely on the basis of percieved merit, social gravitas or the gift of the gab.

In order to understand the jist of alternative economics you need to understand that the price system of money is fundamental to our problems because it is based on an abstraction. Every person has a equal amount of energy to offer, which in the end balances us and puts us on a level playing field.

We would enter such a society acknowledging that not every person posesses the knowledge or skills to equally participate in such a society. This problem must be overcome. The purpose of creating a 2 group society is not to create a heirachy but a holonic system where no one part of it is greater or less meritous than the other but at the same time is designed to run counterintuitively to the social inequality and mess that we now find ourselves in thanks to the price system, and more specifically, capitalism.

thomas81
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09 Nov 2012, 7:58 pm

Let me ask you, are doctors regarded as being socially 'higher' than student doctors?

androbot2084
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09 Nov 2012, 8:00 pm

Student Doctors are higher.

thomas81
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09 Nov 2012, 8:01 pm

....Or are children 'less' than adults because of their lack of education?

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