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What would be the consequences of Iran getting nukes?

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thomas81
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18 Nov 2012, 2:23 pm

GGPViper wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
Just to put the matter into perspective, everyone was against North Korea getting nukes for more or less exact the same reaons, because they were worried they would detonate one over Seoul.

Still hasn't happened.


No, they are just starving millions of their own citizens to death. The international community should respond by... oh, wait... North Korea has nukes...


Yet South Korea has remained decidely un-nuked, despite Pyong Yang's vitriol for the South and the speculation of western right wing scaremongers that it would happen.

The fact is, besides speculation you have no greater evidence or reason to believe that Iran is any more likely to pre emptively nuke Israel than the DPRK is to preemptively nuke the ROK.



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18 Nov 2012, 2:31 pm

A Nuclear strike on America.


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18 Nov 2012, 2:35 pm

thomas81 wrote:
GGPViper wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
Just to put the matter into perspective, everyone was against North Korea getting nukes for more or less exact the same reaons, because they were worried they would detonate one over Seoul.

Still hasn't happened.


No, they are just starving millions of their own citizens to death. The international community should respond by... oh, wait... North Korea has nukes...


Yet South Korea has remained decidely un-nuked, despite Pyong Yang's vitriol for the South and the speculation of western right wing scaremongers that it would happen.

The fact is, besides speculation you have no greater evidence or reason to believe that Iran is any more likely to pre emptively nuke Israel than the DPRK is to preemptively nuke the ROK.


South Korea remains un-nuked for three reasons (which overlap into their self-preservation instinct):
1. Close proximity to North Korea, the North Korean leadership has a sense of self-preservation.
2. China -- For all China supports the North Korean regime, they will not tolerate nuclear weapons being flung around that close to the Chinese borders.
3. United States and the international community's inevitable reaction

North Korea is actually less dangerous with nukes than Iran would be, because the North Korean government is not a bunch of religious fanatics. The North Koreans wouldn't mind using the threat of nukes being used in order to bully people; but at the end of the day they really don't want to use them. The Iranian government on the other hand would gladly use nukes to wipe out the Israelis down to the last child, and don't even care if Israel responds with nukes. That is the problem when dealing with fanatics, they don't care if they die in the process.

For the Saudis to actually tell the Israelis that the Israelis could essentially use Saudi airspace to launch an attack on the Iranian nuclear facilities, seems to suggest that the Saudis are scared that the fanatics in the Iranian government would actually start flinging nukes around to the point that they are willing to let Israel use Saudi airspace in the attack on Iran's facilities.



thomas81
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18 Nov 2012, 2:39 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
GGPViper wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
Just to put the matter into perspective, everyone was against North Korea getting nukes for more or less exact the same reaons, because they were worried they would detonate one over Seoul.

Still hasn't happened.


No, they are just starving millions of their own citizens to death. The international community should respond by... oh, wait... North Korea has nukes...


Yet South Korea has remained decidely un-nuked, despite Pyong Yang's vitriol for the South and the speculation of western right wing scaremongers that it would happen.

The fact is, besides speculation you have no greater evidence or reason to believe that Iran is any more likely to pre emptively nuke Israel than the DPRK is to preemptively nuke the ROK.


South Korea remains un-nuked for three reasons (which overlap into their self-preservation instinct):
1. Close proximity to North Korea, the North Korean leadership has a sense of self-preservation.
2. China -- For all China supports the North Korean regime, they will not tolerate nuclear weapons being flung around that close to the Chinese borders.
3. United States and the international community's inevitable reaction



Replace 2. (China) with the USA, then all of those points could more or less be made against the possibility of an Iranian 'first strike'.

It would also alienate them from Russia and any other potential allies. Really Iran has more to lose than it has to be gain from this. It would be stupid, stupid stupid of them and Ahmoudinejhad is an intelligent man, he has a professorship.



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18 Nov 2012, 2:53 pm

thomas81 wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
GGPViper wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
Just to put the matter into perspective, everyone was against North Korea getting nukes for more or less exact the same reaons, because they were worried they would detonate one over Seoul.

Still hasn't happened.


No, they are just starving millions of their own citizens to death. The international community should respond by... oh, wait... North Korea has nukes...


Yet South Korea has remained decidely un-nuked, despite Pyong Yang's vitriol for the South and the speculation of western right wing scaremongers that it would happen.

The fact is, besides speculation you have no greater evidence or reason to believe that Iran is any more likely to pre emptively nuke Israel than the DPRK is to preemptively nuke the ROK.


South Korea remains un-nuked for three reasons (which overlap into their self-preservation instinct):
1. Close proximity to North Korea, the North Korean leadership has a sense of self-preservation.
2. China -- For all China supports the North Korean regime, they will not tolerate nuclear weapons being flung around that close to the Chinese borders.
3. United States and the international community's inevitable reaction



Replace 2. (China) with the USA, then all of those points could more or less be made against the possibility of an Iranian 'first strike'.

It would also alienate them from Russia and any other potential allies. Really Iran has more to lose than it has to be gain from this. It would be stupid, stupid stupid of them and Ahmoudinejhad is an intelligent man, he has a professorship.


What part of "religious fanatics" do you not understand, or is it just that you think only Christians can be fanatics?

There are a lot of "intelligent" people that are religious fanatics, just because someone has a Ph.D. doesn't mean they can't have a screw loose; see the shootings in the movie theatre out in Colorado; the guy was a graduate student.

If you believe you are going to paradise for killing "infidels" and doesn't matter if you or anyone else dies in the process, and you are going to get 50 beautiful virgin women as your personal harem when you die; I think the reasonable conclusion is that individual in question will not have a keen sense of self-preservation; in fact he wouldn't care if he died. Thus all those reasons why North Korea wouldn't use nukes doesn't apply to Iran; that's why religious fanatics in any religion are extremely dangerous.



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18 Nov 2012, 2:54 pm

Their are no fanatics in my religion.


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thomas81
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18 Nov 2012, 2:59 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
GGPViper wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
Just to put the matter into perspective, everyone was against North Korea getting nukes for more or less exact the same reaons, because they were worried they would detonate one over Seoul.

Still hasn't happened.


No, they are just starving millions of their own citizens to death. The international community should respond by... oh, wait... North Korea has nukes...


Yet South Korea has remained decidely un-nuked, despite Pyong Yang's vitriol for the South and the speculation of western right wing scaremongers that it would happen.

The fact is, besides speculation you have no greater evidence or reason to believe that Iran is any more likely to pre emptively nuke Israel than the DPRK is to preemptively nuke the ROK.


South Korea remains un-nuked for three reasons (which overlap into their self-preservation instinct):
1. Close proximity to North Korea, the North Korean leadership has a sense of self-preservation.
2. China -- For all China supports the North Korean regime, they will not tolerate nuclear weapons being flung around that close to the Chinese borders.
3. United States and the international community's inevitable reaction



Replace 2. (China) with the USA, then all of those points could more or less be made against the possibility of an Iranian 'first strike'.

It would also alienate them from Russia and any other potential allies. Really Iran has more to lose than it has to be gain from this. It would be stupid, stupid stupid of them and Ahmoudinejhad is an intelligent man, he has a professorship.


What part of "religious fanatics" do you not understand, or is it just that you think only Christians can be fanatics?

If Juche weren't considered a 'branch of communism', it would be a religion.

I honestly do not know the difference between Juche and religion. Kim Il-Un, is after all, a titular god-king who inspires a divine like fear in his followers.

If that isnt a cult at least, I dont know what is.



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18 Nov 2012, 3:04 pm

thomas81 wrote:
If Juche weren't considered a 'branch of communism', it would be a religion.

I honestly do not know the difference between Juche and religion. Kim Il-Un, is after all, a titular god-king who inspires a divine like fear in his followers.

If that isnt a cult at least, I dont know what is.


He still has a sense of self-preservation, unlike religious fanatics that I mentioned above, when he starts preaching about ritualized suicides then you may have a point, but until he demonstrates he actually believes his own propaganda, which he hasn't, you're making a false equivalency.



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18 Nov 2012, 3:08 pm

^ I saw a documentary about North Korea not too long ago. To be honest the people there are right on par with the hardcore religious extremists. But much more docile, like sheep. It really is sad.



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18 Nov 2012, 3:15 pm

Seabass wrote:
^ I saw a documentary about North Korea not too long ago. To be honest the people there are right on par with the hardcore religious extremists. But much more docile, like sheep. It really is sad.


I think there are as many lies coming out about NK as there are truths. Its 2 way traffic really. The western media machine is also guilty of turning people into docile sheep, greased up for military intervention.

I am opposed to the Juche system as much as I am opposed to western interventionalism.

Political change in North Korea must come through the will of the North Korean people. Not through the barrel of an American rifle. Same as Iran.



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18 Nov 2012, 3:17 pm

Seabass wrote:
^ I saw a documentary about North Korea not too long ago. To be honest the people there are right on par with the hardcore religious extremists. But much more docile, like sheep. It really is sad.


Listening to people who have visited North Korea, it seems that doesn't quite tell the whole story. They know that there's an world outside North Korea (which may well be tons better) but information is so blocked and they're so heavily surveilled and controlled, so they have to keep going.

A Flickr contact took loads of photos inside the DPRK, and the nearest thing I can describe it to is that the country looks like it's on another planet.

Here you go - some photos here (http://www.flickr.com/photos/moreska/). You may want to check this ([url]http://www.flickr.com/photos/zaruka/[/url]) guy's photostream, as he has tons of DPRK photos too. :)



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18 Nov 2012, 3:28 pm

Paranoia about Iran has no basis in reality, what countries have they ever attacked? We overthrew their democratic government, installed our own dictator, supported an Iraqi invasion and war effort(we also gave Iran weapons in that war, thanks Reagan), shot down one of their civilian airliners, imposed sanctions, and countless other incidents. Iran has supported terror abroad but we've done far more to them than they ever did us.

Iran want nuclear weapons for the same reason North Korea wanted them, self preservation. We've all seen what happen to Gaddafi once he gave up his.



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18 Nov 2012, 3:32 pm

thomas81 wrote:
Political change in North Korea must come through the will of the North Korean people. Not through the barrel of an American rifle. Same as Iran.


As long as Dear Leader is treated as a god, that will not happen.

See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8-Vr_r36Fg

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18 Nov 2012, 3:39 pm

Tequila wrote:
Seabass wrote:
^ I saw a documentary about North Korea not too long ago. To be honest the people there are right on par with the hardcore religious extremists. But much more docile, like sheep. It really is sad.


Listening to people who have visited North Korea, it seems that doesn't quite tell the whole story. They know that there's an world outside North Korea (which may well be tons better) but information is so blocked and they're so heavily surveilled and controlled, so they have to keep going.

A Flickr contact took loads of photos inside the DPRK, and the nearest thing I can describe it to is that the country looks like it's on another planet.

Here you go - some photos here (http://www.flickr.com/photos/moreska/). You may want to check this ([url]http://www.flickr.com/photos/zaruka/[/url]) guy's photostream, as he has tons of DPRK photos too. :)


Wow, nice pics. DPKR looks grey and bleak as expected. I thoroughly enjoyed the other pics as well.



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18 Nov 2012, 5:41 pm

Tequila wrote:
Seabass wrote:
^ I saw a documentary about North Korea not too long ago. To be honest the people there are right on par with the hardcore religious extremists. But much more docile, like sheep. It really is sad.


Listening to people who have visited North Korea, it seems that doesn't quite tell the whole story. They know that there's an world outside North Korea (which may well be tons better) but information is so blocked and they're so heavily surveilled and controlled, so they have to keep going.

A Flickr contact took loads of photos inside the DPRK, and the nearest thing I can describe it to is that the country looks like it's on another planet.

Here you go - some photos here (http://www.flickr.com/photos/moreska/). You may want to check this ([url]http://www.flickr.com/photos/zaruka/[/url]) guy's photostream, as he has tons of DPRK photos too. :)


The one good thing about the DPRK is the total absence of any corporate paraphernalia and pretentious billboards attempting to cynically sell crap. I love the idea of being able to drive in an area the size of England without encountering a single damn golden arches.



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18 Nov 2012, 5:43 pm

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