Any Christians here? Need to ask you something.

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I mostly agree with you, but some minor points really struck me, and these are things I've heard before...

I fundamentally disagree here. That "God helps those who help themselves" is unbiblical. I would suggest that God helps the helpless. Whether one can help himself or not is not an issue at all. The point the Bible makes is that all believers are to claim full dependence on God. Even if someone is wealthy and doesn't appear to need anything from anyone, it is God who allows him to possess wealth. Even in the Old Testament it is written that the Israelites should stay humble and remember that the wealth they receive in the promised land was given to them by God and that they should never say that they somehow earned it for themselves. This should be no different for the Christian.


More or less. I used to wonder why it is that if God knows everything, why does he test us as though he doesn't? I've recently been through a period of testing, and it wasn't long before I came to the conclusion that God already knows what I'm going to do in response to his call just as I know what I'm going to do as someone who seeks to obey. I realized that what God was having me do (or rather NOT do) was not about suffering and pain, or desire and temptation, or whatever, but rather to help me see where I was spiritually...a divine "report card" of sorts. Every Biblical test has served that purpose. Not to show God what you're made of, not even really to show YOU what you're made of (because if you're being honest with yourself, you already know what you're going to do), but to show others where your faith really lies. Abraham sacrificing Isaac comes to mind. It wasn't to show God whether Abraham was worthy (God already knew). Abraham knew something was up because God already told him that his line would continue through Isaac (which would make God a liar if Isaac died--and besides, even if Isaac had died, Abraham might have known God would bring him back). Abraham's actions in response to God's call were to serve as evidence that Abraham was worthy to father a God-fearing nation. All spiritual testing does is put faith into more tangible action.

No, God doesn't put us through a trial we can't handle. But I don't think we can always handle the trials we are given. God always gives us a way out so that we don't HAVE to face temptation. Let's say someone is a recovering alcoholic and decides to pour every bottle he has down the drain. God isn't going to test that person by supernaturally filling up his liquor cabinet! At the same time, God isn't going to remove the liquor store that happens to be on the way home after work. While that may forever stand as a temptation, God isn't going to force that person to stop at the store, walk in, and buy his favorite strong drink. If drinking is too much of a trial or temptation, God will let you get away from that temptation where you are most vulnerable. God does not prevent you from running right back to that temptation if that's what you really want. There is a wide difference between allowing temptation and setting someone up to fail. I feel the latter is more reflective of the nature and character of God the way the Bible portrays him.

"Heaven helps those who help themselves" is actually a line from Shakespeare (MacBeth?), not from the Good Book.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

I never said the line was from the Bible

I know - I was just putting it out there.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

Yes, God does help the helpless, but helpless people are not the only people that God helps either, there's always going to be a few people who can't change their situation, that's an obvious truth to life, but God works through others in those cases by using their situation as a means of reaching them.
Having said that, people still have to make an effort to help themselves when they receive what they need in order to do so, that's what that saying means. If people are unwilling to change their situation, even if they have what they need to do so, then God can't help them, but if a person uses what they've received from God to change themselves or their situation, then God has helped them because they helped themselves. I don't think that is unbiblical at all since the basis and purpose is to get people to understand what 90% of people seem to miss, and that's that God can help you if you make an effort to change yourself or your situation.

For example, someone who abuses substances wants things to change and they want to be clean. All the counselors in the world wouldn't make the situation any better if the substance abuser doesn't try to change by using what they get from those counselors to do so.
The same applies to God, God gives us what we need in order to change things, but we have to use it and make the effort to change, or God can't help us.

Ah, my bad then.

"S'okay!

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

My point is that if we are being honest with ourselves, we all have to recognize that we are helpless without God. The "haves" tend to credit themselves, their talents, their hard work, and so on with their success. "Have-nots" aren't necessarily "better" than the haves, but they have an easier time understanding total dependence on someone or something else for getting them through life. The idea that we can somehow help ourselves is scripturally absurd.

Now, that doesn't mean that God doesn't call us to action. He can give us everything we need, but he doesn't force us to take it. Manna was everything the Israelites needed while wandering in the wilderness. So, sure, we can "help ourselves" to all that God gives. God doesn't stop us from reaching for more if that's what we want. But we also see from scripture that there are consequences for taking credit for "helping yourself" and overreaching, i.e. expressing dissatisfaction with God's plan. You see that with Adam and Eve, the Israelites in the wilderness, Saul's failures as king, idol worship...pretty much every sin out there is a symptom of our rejection of God's providence. I think that the "help themselves" attitude is misleading. I mean, even when God says "Do this," he gives us the strength to do whatever it is--we don't do it by our own power. There is no blessing just because we "help ourselves," because those are actions WE take and not what we allow God to do through us. Without God, we are all helpless.