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Is work tyranny?

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visagrunt
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26 Feb 2013, 4:32 pm

thomas81 wrote:
I agree with you up until this extent, however what we do not need is a system that provides work for works sake, what we need is a system which provides work which maximises and utilises each human being to their full potential while giving them fair opportunity to embetter or alternate themselves.


We have that system. It's called the market.

However, because the of the structural imbalance of bargaining power, we do have to temper the market by prohibiting employers from engaging in conduct that is exploitative.

Where government fails to put constraints on employers, employment can become exploitative, and hence, tyrranical. When government exercises excessive control over the marketplace, then the marketplace can become dysfunctional by removing the incentive to produce. The key lies in the balance. Enough rules to keep employers and employees on a level playing field, but loose enough so that each can maximize their gains from the relationship.


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26 Feb 2013, 4:35 pm

Here is a Ted lecture that some of you may enjoy

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Re53vgaVFvI[/youtube]

She points out that, just because she won the genetic lottery, she has had a lot of unfair professional and personal advantages. Some of us are not quite so fortunate.



ruveyn
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26 Feb 2013, 4:36 pm

visagrunt wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
I agree with you up until this extent, however what we do not need is a system that provides work for works sake, what we need is a system which provides work which maximises and utilises each human being to their full potential while giving them fair opportunity to embetter or alternate themselves.


We have that system. It's called the market.

However, because the of the structural imbalance of bargaining power, we do have to temper the market by prohibiting employers from engaging in conduct that is exploitative.

Where government fails to put constraints on employers, employment can become exploitative, and hence, tyrranical. When government exercises excessive control over the marketplace, then the marketplace can become dysfunctional by removing the incentive to produce. The key lies in the balance. Enough rules to keep employers and employees on a level playing field, but loose enough so that each can maximize their gains from the relationship.


What imbalance? If the worker doesn't like the wages he can decline the job. He is free to do so.

ruveyn



thomas81
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26 Feb 2013, 4:39 pm

visagrunt wrote:
[

We have that system. It's called the market.

No, we don't. The 'market' is failing dismally at doing anything that Im suggesting. Big fish capitalists eat up other companies and limit the diversity of work through various nefarious business practices like nepotist promotion, bribing politicians and exploiting government subsidies. I should know, because I am currently on the payroll, not to mention under the thumb, of such a company. This sort of behaviour is only amplified across regions such as south asia where exploited employees toll repetitively ad nauseam for up to sixteen hours a day, for little more than few cents an hour. This arrangement serves no collective good and has no relation to maximising the workforce potential.


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thomas81
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26 Feb 2013, 4:42 pm

ruveyn wrote:
What imbalance? If the worker doesn't like the wages he can decline the job. He is free to do so.

ruveyn


free to do so, free to starve.

The employer knows this as well as the employee which is why they do, and get away with sh***y industrial practices without fear of losing staff.


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ruveyn
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26 Feb 2013, 4:43 pm

thomas81 wrote:
visagrunt wrote:
[

We have that system. It's called the market.

I should know, because I am currently on the payroll, not to mention under the thumb, of such a company.


Stop complaining. You are free to quit. You are not bound to your job by either law or force. And why don't you start your own business. Other people do every day of the year.

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26 Feb 2013, 4:48 pm

thomas81 wrote:
androbot2084 wrote:
Next time I'm going to take that good paying drywall hanging job and if my boss says I am too slow I will tell him to buy me a robot.


A point i like to use is the following classroom story. In school, my class had to 'vote' for their ideal job and we drew a histogram of the results. People voted for things like Astronaut, racing driver, rock star, doctor etc. No one chose 'bad jobs' like factory worker or rubbish man (garbage man).

Everyone, as a child had an 'ideal job' but due to the nature of the system, these dreams are quickly vanquished due to the practicalities inherent in our inequal society and we are forced to give them up.

In the sort of society I envision one would be able to pursue these things from the point of school to signing their work contract.

This is ridiculously naive, as it assumes that all people are equally capable of pursuing all kinds of work. It's basically a copy-paste from The German Ideology.



thomas81
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26 Feb 2013, 4:48 pm

ruveyn wrote:

Stop complaining. You are free to quit. You are not bound to your job by either law or force.

Read my last post

ruveyn wrote:

And why don't you start your own business. Other people do every day of the year.

ruveyn


what makes you think I didn't/am think/attempting of that already?


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26 Feb 2013, 4:49 pm

So am I free to accept the drywall job?



thomas81
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26 Feb 2013, 4:49 pm

GGPViper wrote:

This is ridiculously naive, as it assumes that all people are equally capable of pursuing all kinds of work. It's basically a copy-paste from The German Ideology.


its unhelpful to think of it in terms of 'equal ability'. I am looking at it in terms of 'different ability'.

An autistic of all people should be able to appreciate this premise.


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thomas81
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26 Feb 2013, 4:54 pm

androbot2084 wrote:
So am I free to accept the drywall job?


if you wish to drywall so badly, why wait for an employment contract. Go and drywall.

i'm not opposed to you drywalling. I am opposed to the institution that consigns and coerces people to unfulfilling and asinine tasks in the pragmatic pursuit of profit and self interest.


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26 Feb 2013, 5:04 pm

thomas81 wrote:
GGPViper wrote:

This is ridiculously naive, as it assumes that all people are equally capable of pursuing all kinds of work. It's basically a copy-paste from The German Ideology.


its unhelpful to think of it in terms of 'equal ability'. I am looking at it in terms of 'different ability'.

An autistic of all people should be able to appreciate this premise.

A romantic notion.

Usain Bolt will run the 100 metre distance faster than me. John von Neumann's cognitive abilities are vastly superior to mine on pretty much any scale ever devised to test cognitive ability.

If I am smarter than Usain Bolt, he will still be a athletic superstar and I'll still be a common bureaucrat. If I run faster than John von Neumann, he will still be a scientific mastermind, and I'll still be a common bureaucrat.

There is no just world invisible hand which ensures that differences in ability between individuals cancel each other out...



thomas81
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26 Feb 2013, 5:17 pm

GGPViper wrote:

Usain Bolt will run the 100 metre distance faster than me. John von Neumann's cognitive abilities are vastly superior to mine on pretty much any scale ever devised to test cognitive ability.

If I am smarter than Usain Bolt, he will still be a athletic superstar and I'll still be a common bureaucrat. If I run faster than John von Neumann, he will still be a scientific mastermind, and I'll still be a common bureaucrat.

There is no just world invisible hand which ensures that differences in ability between individuals cancel each other out...


The idea that not all disabilities and abilities are 'cancelled out' does not validate a system which facilitates servitude and excessive privilege on grand extremities.

I do not believe that any human being is at their most productive when slogging on a factory line, call centre or fast food distributor. Whether or not the idea that abilities are in equilibrium, is neither here nor there. Its about facilitating the collective ability.


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26 Feb 2013, 5:37 pm

thomas81 wrote:
GGPViper wrote:

Usain Bolt will run the 100 metre distance faster than me. John von Neumann's cognitive abilities are vastly superior to mine on pretty much any scale ever devised to test cognitive ability.

If I am smarter than Usain Bolt, he will still be a athletic superstar and I'll still be a common bureaucrat. If I run faster than John von Neumann, he will still be a scientific mastermind, and I'll still be a common bureaucrat.

There is no just world invisible hand which ensures that differences in ability between individuals cancel each other out...

The idea that not all disabilities and abilities are 'cancelled out' does not validate a system which facilitates servitude and excessive privilege on grand extremities.

I'm sorry, I didn't get that. I am proficient in English, but not in BS.



visagrunt
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26 Feb 2013, 5:52 pm

ruveyn wrote:
What imbalance? If the worker doesn't like the wages he can decline the job. He is free to do so.

ruveyn


That's not equality of bargaining power. If one party's option is, "take it or leave it," then the relationship is still imbalanced. A labour market is not free if the paricipants do not have the ability to maximize the returns from the sale of their labour at the same time as the purchasers are looking to minimize cost.

thomas81 wrote:
No, we don't. The 'market' is failing dismally at doing anything that Im suggesting. Big fish capitalists eat up other companies and limit the diversity of work through various nefarious business practices like nepotist promotion, bribing politicians and exploiting government subsidies. I should know, because I am currently on the payroll, not to mention under the thumb, of such a company. This sort of behaviour is only amplified across regions such as south asia where exploited employees toll repetitively ad nauseam for up to sixteen hours a day, for little more than few cents an hour. This arrangement serves no collective good and has no relation to maximising the workforce potential.


You claim to be under the thumb of such a company. Are you compensated fairly for the work that you do? Is your employer subject to rules that promote transparency in staffing? Are employees at your company part of bargaining units? Just because you work in an unsatisfactory environment does not mean that a well regulated market cannot create satisfactory employment opportunities for people.

As as for the amplification of exploitation in other parts of the world, that goes directly to my point about rules. Where government fails to regulate, employers will seek to exploit.

The role of government in regulating the labour market is a necessary component of precisely the system that you contemplate.


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26 Feb 2013, 6:12 pm

GGPViper wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
GGPViper wrote:

Usain Bolt will run the 100 metre distance faster than me. John von Neumann's cognitive abilities are vastly superior to mine on pretty much any scale ever devised to test cognitive ability.

If I am smarter than Usain Bolt, he will still be a athletic superstar and I'll still be a common bureaucrat. If I run faster than John von Neumann, he will still be a scientific mastermind, and I'll still be a common bureaucrat.

There is no just world invisible hand which ensures that differences in ability between individuals cancel each other out...

The idea that not all disabilities and abilities are 'cancelled out' does not validate a system which facilitates servitude and excessive privilege on grand extremities.

I'm sorry, I didn't get that. I am proficient in English, but not in BS.



Ad hominem. Care to substantiate that?


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