Three-state solution?

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I'm chiming in a little late here, but I have to ask - - have the Palestinian people expressed any interest in a three state solution so far? I ask, because they end up without any independent state, but rather, the (probably second class) citizens of two neighbors. And while it's true that a great number of Palestinians live in Jordan, the fact of the matter is, the Palestinians have come to embrace a national identity of their own, quite separate from that of the Jordanians.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

exactly, if the Palestinians dont want it, its irrelevant what 'solutions' any outsiders come up with.

what is unhelpful though, when western and Israeli hawks intentionally confuse all Palestinians with Hamas and their agenda. That is the real racism here.

Can you tell me where, in the Likud charter, it specifically calls for killing Muslims for no other reason than they are Muslims?

I can point to the same in the Hamas Charter.

I can also point to many well-documented instances of racist incitement in the "secular, socialist" PA if you are interested. The wholesale referencing and use of "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion" for a start, and the speeches by racist PA-funded imams.

Even if I can point to an Arab poll that shows that the majority of those polled support the Hamas Charter?

When Hamas have 40 percent of all annual American aid, F-16 jets, state of the art automatic carbines, battleships, abrams tanks, high energy laser cannons and ballistic missiles armed with nuclear warheads, I will take the Hamas charter seriously. Until then, it isnt worth the paper it is written on.

By the way, the only difference between Hamas and Likud is while Hamas talks about genocide, Likud has the means, and a signficant electorate backing to carry it out. Thats what makes them the aggressor.

Ah, but if, as you say, returning the land to Jordan and Egypt would be "effectively circumventing an autonomous Palestine", then doing so would simultaneously expose Arab "support" for the Palestinians exactly for what it is - a massive fraud designed to distract their own people's from their own problems and their own inadequate leadership by making them focus on the "plight" of the Palestinians at the expense of Israel. And really, if you think about it, it is not up to Israel to solve the Palestinians problem of not having a country of their own, any more than its up to Egypt or Jordan to do so. But as long as Egypt and Jordan and the rest of the Arabs have been crying and moaning for decades about the huge "injustice" done to the Palestinians by Israel, I think they deserve the opportunity to be in control of the situation and solve it themselves. All Israel did was conquer the land - it wasn't an independent country when they found it, and its not their responsibility to create an independent country there. Israel should simply wash their hands of it. It would be vastly refreshing to watch Israel and the U.S. be able to cry about the massive injustice to the Palestinians while Egypt and Jordan and the other Arabs look just as evil as they've been trying to make us out to be all these years.

Okay, but you want a bi-national state where in essence the Israelis and Palestinians share power over all the land instead of dividing up the land and each ruling their own portion-aka the 2 state solution-or 3 (I know I'm simplifying ridiculously). Now if Hamas is going to lead the Palestinian people and they want to share power over the same land as the Jewish Israelis it might help them if the charter of the former group didn't explicitly promote annihilation of the latter group.

It wouldn't be very smart of group X to govern a country together with group Y if group Y stated that its objective was to destroy group X. In fact it would be moronic.

Whilst I realise that its not the fault of young Jews that they belive such lies for this is what they are taught, just like the Hitler Youth believed what they were taught, its not true that Palestine was an empty desert with nobody living there as if God was keeping it for his chosen ones.

It was a thriving country in as much as any middle eastern country cam be called such heres a film of Palestine from 1896

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=1vaIK8wlAl0[/youtube]

And as for your first line, its pure nonsense, though the Jews might have stolen the Jaffa Orange from the Palestinians for instance, the Palestinians had a lot more going on for centuries, this is a part of a Wikipedia article on Jaffa Oranges,

"Located at the crossroads between Africa, western Asia, and Europe, Palestine produced a number of commodities for export via imperial and global distribution networks throughout the late Islamic period (1200–1900 CE). Among these were soap, sugar, barley, oranges, and cotton. Though cotton left its mark throughout the region, the only commodity, "that remains a symbol of production in Palestine is the Jaffa orange."[6]

The Jaffa orange was a new variety developed by Arab farmers after emerging in the mid-19th century as a mutation on a tree of the Baladi variety near Jaffa."

And Palestine did exist, we had a British Mandate of "Palestine"

And as for Ruveyn notion that its Palestinian behaviour that led to the formation of the state of Israel, I cannot belive the level of ignorance here, do you not know the history of Zionism, the Balfour Declaration, the constant claims of needing a safe homeland due to a "Holocaust of six Million Jews" claimed from decades before the rise of Nazism.

Whilst us Goy have governments that lie and deceive its own people, at least we can acknowledge that, Iam always amazed how Jews will support the most outrageous behaviour and lies of fellow Jews, just to support their own, not realising how damaging this is to how Israel and the Jews are perceived around the world.

Hamas certainly needs to completely disappear - which will mean having to completely wipe them out - at the very, very least. It's as much in the interests of the Palestinian people as it is for the Israelis. In fact, both the racist ideologies of Fatah and Hamas need to go. When both of those are gone, and the Palestinians in Judea and Samaria and Gaza move away from fundamentalist Islamic-derived nationalism and terrorism-praising, perhaps then the Israelis can talk.

I don't think there is any real incentive for peace though, and if the Palestinians are happy dying for Islam and bellyaching about their oppression without dealing with the deeply ret*d nature of their society, there isn't much the Israelis can do about that but continue to defend themselves and their country.

If that were to happen, see the "Palestinian" concept disappear again. Just like that.

The Palestinian concept and 'national identity' is only of any use if it can be used to attack Jews. The Arabs (and Western leftists like thomas81) couldn't care less about other Palestinians that are being murdered in large numbers outside that particular part of the Middle East. They couldn't care less about the disgusting denial of rights to Palestinians in numerous Middle Eastern Arab countries. They couldn't give a damn about the squalid nature of the lives of Palestinians, directly caused by the refusal of other Arab countries to allow their fellow Arab brothers to integrate, to get a job, to live good, fulfilling lives. No - they, like the corrupt hypocrites and Islamist terrorists in the PA and Hamas, only want to see the Palestinians miserable and suffering because then they can turn that suffering on Israel.

It's nothing to do with the Palestinians for these people. It's to do with a hatred of Israel and, they, like the Arabs, are continuing to abuse, exploit and mistreat these people who, let's face it, have had a pretty horrid time of it over the last 100 years (and a lot of that has nothing to do with Israel, either).

I did like it when Syrian Palestinians were in mortal danger and they came to the Israeli border. Israel called up Abbas and asked him whether he would give shelter to these Palestinians fleeing persecution. He simply said: No.

I'm not saying I like Hamas or want them in power, quite the contrary. What is in the best interests of BOTH the Israeli and Palestinians is a shared, secular progressive government with a shared national identity that kowtows to neither the militant Judaist or Islamic camps on either side. That is the sane solution but you will never hear western hawks like Tequila support this because they want their little outpost and puppet state in the region to further their pro market, liberal ideology. Divide and conquer is the real enemy, not the idea of Palestinian autonomy.

The phrase "shared, secular, progressive" applied to Muslims is naive and absurd.

This makes as much sense as looking for teats on a bull.

ruveyn

I agree that (Sharia) Islam has too much power in Palestinian society. The Israelis militant heavy handed approach is only serving to tighten the Islamic stranglehold.

At some point they need to accept their onus as the dominant power and to start acting with an air of example.

You sound like Ghandi who recommended that the Jews bare their throats to the Nazis. Taurus Cacas I say to that.

ruveyn

I support bombing the entire middle east off of the map. they all dont want to be here on earth anyways
this is just a bus stop for Jehovah, Jesus and finally Allah.

The bull. You defecate?

"Taurus cacat" would be, "the bull s**ts." But I suspect you meant to say, "Stercus Tauri," or bull's faeces.

Now write it out a hundred times...