Aspergers, a path to species differentiation?

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ruveyn
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19 Mar 2013, 4:17 am

MasterSynaps wrote:

In apparent steady state development this would take a long time, but in times of severe crisis for a species not so long. It's not unknown in Sapiens society that racial/social groups have persecuted other racial/social groups purely for being different.


Modern case in point. In Europe when Jews were forced to live separately from Christians in either ghettos or shtetels there developed an intelligence differential between the average intelligence among Jews and the average intelligence among Christians.

It even persists to this day. Anti-semitic apartheidt did produce some genetic shifts. It isn't speciation because Jews and non-Jews are all members of the species homo sapien sapien and can interbreed.

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visagrunt
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19 Mar 2013, 12:10 pm

MasterSynaps wrote:
Of course we are still of the same species and able to breed, but if the pattern of history continues our species will eventually be replaced by a more "suitable " variant primate, possibly coexist with a new variant, or go extinct without leaving a new variant. The coexist has happened in the past for a period, but Sapiens is terribly aggressive and wiped out the competition.

We've agreed that physical separation+ time is one way of differentiation. And there is another way where there is differentiation without separation. Flowers and pollinating insects show a great diversity in closely related species, many having only one combination of flower and pollinator, others of course are more diverse.
Here again we need to consider the reading of environmental and social signalling being a significant influence in driving differentiation.

The propensity of Aspies to read differently/ fail to read social signalling and it would seem to some extent to also read the phenomenal world around us in differing ways to NTs, is somewhat similar and to my mind worthy of contemplation.

We must remember that in the not so distant past, and even today in some places or with some people, interracial breeding has been taboo and often persecuted. If these views continued for an extended length of time this would effectively constitute a physical barrier.

Social signalling and attitudes have the capacity if they become deeply ingrained, to drive a wedge into the common genetic heritage, especially when coupled with even minor genetic difference.

In apparent steady state development this would take a long time, but in times of severe crisis for a species not so long. It's not unknown in Sapiens society that racial/social groups have persecuted other racial/social groups purely for being different.


This is fantasy. Nothing more.

Genetic differentiation requires thousands of generations. Our specific differentiation from our nearest genetic relatives, the chimpanzees, took place five million years ago--roughly 250,000 generations. Our species achieved its current anatomical form about 200,000 years ago--roughly 10,000 generations. How do you suppose that a discrete population of H. sapiens aspergiensis can emerge in the midst of all of the interbreeding that will continue on an ongoing basis?

There is absolutely nothing in our cognititive and behavioural traits that is going to serve to differentiate us from the rest of the species. The causal chain appears pretty clear--my genetics contributes to the causes of my AS, but my AS does not alter my genes, nor does it make them more likely to prevail. AS is not a dominant trait characteristic. It does not better adapt me to my environment. It is simply something that differentiates me from other members of my species, like my fingerprints and my pigmentation.


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MasterSynaps
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19 Mar 2013, 4:56 pm

Quote:
This is fantasy. Nothing more.

Genetic differentiation requires thousands of generations. Our specific differentiation from our nearest genetic relatives, the chimpanzees, took place five million years ago--roughly 250,000 generations. Our species achieved its current anatomical form about 200,000 years ago--roughly 10,000 generations. How do you suppose that a discrete population of H. sapiens aspergiensis can emerge in the midst of all of the interbreeding that will continue on an ongoing basis?

There is absolutely nothing in our cognititive and behavioural traits that is going to serve to differentiate us from the rest of the species. The causal chain appears pretty clear--my genetics contributes to the causes of my AS, but my AS does not alter my genes, nor does it make them more likely to prevail. AS is not a dominant trait characteristic. It does not better adapt me to my environment. It is simply something that differentiates me from other members of my species, like my fingerprints and my pigmentation




Of course this is fantasy, who can know what will be the next Homo variant and when it will appear?

I find the coupling of, (in HFA's) relatively high intelligence with a difference in perceiving the world around us, both socially and phenomenally, an interesting combination.

If there is any evolutionary benefit to be found there, of course it will most likely be incorporated into the overall genome, but, if we think that the patterns of evolution continue, then something will eventually drive a wedge into our species.

Who knows, some time in the future, the crew of a starship may be heavily weighted to those who carry HFA.



JCJC777
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19 Mar 2013, 11:50 pm

good discussion.

this TED talk is simiar: http://www.ted.com/talks/juan_enriquez_ ... ecies.html

higher autism/asperger diagnosis rates may be artificial; maybe some past aspies were not diagnosed, and some people now being diagnosed are behaving that way for other reasons.

AS people may increasingly face the reality that their live experience is net negative and so not breed, so humanity might disappear, but that would be ok.



MasterSynaps
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20 Mar 2013, 12:40 am

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Exactly. I've seen this before. Thanks.

He makes the case better than I can, though he doesn't go into the differences in social signalling involved in the mutation, if that's what it actually is.



Redstar2613
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20 Mar 2013, 2:38 am

Because we think differently to NTs, I think this sometimes gives us an advantage. A lot of NTs don't think as much, don't look into things as much, basically they just miss a whole bunch of important information.
One of our biggest disadvantages is in social skills but if we could somehow find a way to overcome that, it would easier to get what we know across to them, so that everyone will be better off.
But that probably wont happen. They're too happy going through life on auto pilot and bringing the rest of us down with them.



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20 Mar 2013, 4:32 am

@redstar yes I agree. "One of our biggest disadvantages is in social skills."

The problem is that one of the evolutionary systems in our brains monitors the inter-human feedback we are receiving. If we get neutral or negative feedback the system releases chemicals that cause us to feel pain and distress. This can make us unhappy and our net life experience negative.

Because of our poor social skills we do mostly (or totally) get neutral or negative inter-human feedback.

We need to find ways round this. i.e.
(a) find ways of behaving to get positive inter-human feedback (behave only in ways that others find charming or humourous, and interact with people we have found a way of interacting positively with), and/or
(b) get our evolutionary system expecting and acclimatised to neutral/negative feedback so that so it stops emitting distress chemicals when that occurs, and/or
(c) adopt approaches that enable us to experience the pain and distress in a way that minimises it's impact on our happiness (i.e. get used to it) - meditation may enable this.



ruveyn
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20 Mar 2013, 7:35 am

Redstar2613 wrote:
One of our biggest disadvantages is in social skills but if we could somehow find a way to overcome that, it would easier to get what we know across to them, so that everyone will be better off.
.


And the Aspies would get laid more often.

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20 Mar 2013, 11:15 am

MasterSynaps wrote:
Exactly. I've seen this before. Thanks.

He makes the case better than I can, though he doesn't go into the differences in social signalling involved in the mutation, if that's what it actually is.


I don't think this supports your thesis--for two reasons.

First, this is still pretty loose about the definition of "species." If we aren't going to use the basic definition that a species is the highest taxonomical order capable of interbreeding and producing fertile offspring, then we need to be abundantly clear about what we mean by species.

Second, and more important, you have causation backwards. While we are changing as a species (and there is no question that we are), ASDs are not a cause of that change, they are potentially evidence that this change is underway.

We are not a path to species differentiation. We are simply one of the myriad pieces of evidence to demonstrate that spontaneous mutation and natural selection continue to operate.


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20 Mar 2013, 3:30 pm

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Second, and more important, you have causation backwards. While we are changing as a species (and there is no question that we are), ASDs are not a cause of that change, they are potentially evidence that this change is underway.


I don't believe I've suggested that AS is the cause of itself (the change, the mutation). And yes, as you say, we are potential evidence that change is underway.


Quote:
We are not a path to species differentiation. We are simply one of the myriad pieces of evidence to demonstrate that spontaneous mutation and natural selection continue to operate.



If any one is insisting on absolutes, it is you. I merely raise the coupling of an interesting mutation that has associated with it behavioural and social signalling differences, as a player in the process, while you totally dismiss it. How can YOU be sure that it will play NO part, when even you include us in the evolutionary mix?