Losing your rights?

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Haven't you heard? It's gun safety now, gun "control" has become too politically toxic.

I can think of quite a few people right off hand who have been genuinely anti-gun and not simply pro control, J-Greens probably having been the most recent and striking example (remember him?), and going way back before you arrived to guys like Slowmutant, or half the mod team when I first joined up. There's also a lot of off hand comments made outside of PPR that I usually don't bother with, but a lot of those are actually to the effect of "I don't like guns or gun people", which I find to be quite offensive. I think there are reasons those people tend to stay out of PPR, two of those reasons being right here in this thread.

Really though, can you think of a specific poster who really argued pro gun control well? I mean I've got my arguments just about down to a routine that I can phone in and still be effective, but I'd put that nearly as much down to the generally poor information that pro control arguers tend to rely on than to any skill on my part. I mean it's one of those true stereotypes that the pro gun people are generally more involved and motivated, as we're on defense and have to a lot more to lose than the anti side, buy you'd think in 5 years I'd have come across one well informed anti gun person with whom I could respectfully agree to disagree. I'm not trying to spike the football here or anything, I'm just honestly surprised when I take the time to think about it.

I'm seriously not particularly pro or anti gun rights. But I will say this - I see no problem with gun registration, or with waiting periods and background checks. I also think the leadership of the NRA have either become delusional in their fear of President Obama, or use him as a convenient bogeyman for political gain. And I absolutely believe that allowing people to bring guns into church, stores, or especially bars is the stupidest thing I've ever heard of.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

I'm seriously not particularly pro or anti gun rights.

But I will say this - I see no problem with gun registration, or with waiting periods and background checks.

I also think the leadership of the NRA have either become delusional in their fear of President Obama, or use him as a convenient bogeyman for political gain.

And I absolutely believe that allowing people to bring guns into church, stores, or especially bars is the stupidest thing I've ever heard of.

The times I've thrown my hat in the ring in the past, I've felt challenged. I think you of all people understand a need to fight for your honor.

As for Obama being the enemy of gun owners - not nearly to the extent of the paranoid fantasies spun by the NRA and GOA that he's planning to take away guns in order to declare martial law or some such silliness.

And it is idiocy to go packing everywhere you go - especially when tempers flare - which can happen easily over politics or religion. Add alcohol in a bar scene with an armed individual or individuals, and you've got a pretty explosive situation. And as most businesses go without incident of robbery or shootings, the threat of armed persons causing death and mayhem outweighs the possibility that they may stop crimes in progress.

So you’ve just stated that you ARE anti-gun and feel challenged.


It’s not confiscation we’re concerned with because national gun confiscation is, for all practical purposes, impossible. It’s the incremental banning of groups of guns by description and goofy things like prohibitively high taxes on ammo.
Only the fringe fears some kind of sweeping national door to door gun confiscation but every political party has its lunatic fringes.


By what you’re saying the streets are running red with blood. Guess what; it isn’t.
Concealed carry has grown tremendously in the past few decades but the crime has not gone up with it. Your own state is gun carry friendly so by your reasoning it is the wild west and you don’t feel safe there.

So on this go-around you've only brought more canned rhetoric to the table.
I could ask you to come back with something actually defensible but that would be like asking you to bring back a pocket full of kryptonite.
You cannot bring what does not exist as we've proven time again on this subject.

This has put me in the mood to try and get in some shooting this evening.
See what you’ve done!

And I never said that the streets are running red with blood. Rather there is a potential for spontaneous violence. Again, it's outright idiocy for armed men to congregate together while getting liquored up.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

@Dox47:

The this is though, in states that do allow carry in bars and have done so for some time, that hasn't happened, just as we've had shall issue concealed carry and state preemption here in Washington for decades without issue. This is where I get into it with my gun control challenge, it's not enough to say "this seems like common sense" or "that's crazy, people will be shooting each other over X", you need to demonstrate why something will or will not work. Registration doesn't stop or solve crimes (ask the Canadians), concealed carry does not lead to violence (quite the opposite), assumptions and feelings are not valid substitutes for facts.

But since old west times, how many people seriously walk into bars armed here in Washington?
Just because people can doesn't mean that they do.
And as elitist and regionalist as this might sound, I'm probably going to feel safer around most Northwesterners than I would among red staters. And yes, I know I'm going to get sh** for that last part.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

Wayne LaPierre ought to be added to that list of fringe lunatics, then.

And I never said that the streets are running red with blood. Rather there is a potential for spontaneous violence.

Again, it's outright idiocy for armed men to congregate together while getting liquored up.

And I'm actually very happy to have inspired you to want to go shooting tonight, as it's obviously something that makes you happy.

As a side note, I have absolutely nothing against target practice - I've gone shooting before, and it's damn fun.

But since old west times, how many people seriously walk into bars armed here in Washington?
Just because people can doesn't mean that they do.

And as elitist and regionalist as this might sound, I'm probably going to feel safer around most Northwesterners than I would among red staters. And yes, I know I'm going to get sh** for that last part.

@Dox47: I´d say you shouldnt underestimate on how people also react on the behavement of the people posting. My neighbors father was leader of a special police unit. So he definitely had a gun or more guns at home. At least his "office weapon" for case of emergency. The thing is, he never posed with it, he never would have the idea to pose with an avatar with a weapon or anything. It was a simple working tool for him, one that is dangerous, one you must handle with care because of this. He had a son around my age and we played a lot there, including catching, hiding, ... In my whole childhood, I never saw or found on accident, a single bullet, weapon part, or anything related to his weapons. So he was definitely caring, that none of his working tools ever could endanger us, may it be with or without purpose. I know him to be a very responsible person, able to laugh with you and joke with you, but never would he do or had he done such nonsense as shooting on targets in his garden, or threaten another person with a weapon, anyway how angry he was because of something.

In comparison I experience you much more violent. So I do know that people behave with less care on the internet, because of having no personal contact, but often you seem very careless for me. Like "Huahuahua...of if there is a bug a 0,815 mm will be sufficient, huarhuar..." So I dont know you, so I cannot know if you are simply doing jokes, or if this is really the way you are handling your weapons. But if its the way, it does not seem responsible for me. "So there is a big bug that I could easily avoid in a normal physical way, but why should I do so when I can have an excuse for getting out my guns and shoot a bit around." This is not the kind of responsible weapon owner, I want to have as a neighbor, whom I can trust to care for his weapon and whom I can trust, that if my child visits their child, that he will never get in touch with anything belonging to a weapon. For my neighbor weapons were a tool, that have to be taken care of highly responsible. So I trusted him. While many proweapon pople often argument in a way, that leaves me the impact that their gun is not a tool for them, that they take care of full aware of the advantages and misadvantages, but something through that they release fun and joy. So it gives me the impact, that the weapon is not a tool but a toy for them. Which leads for me to the thought, that if they are playing around with a very dangerous tool, that they might not be as responsible with their weapon as they should. Because of this you dont trust this person anymore, as a neighnor it gives you the thought of: "Ok, what if he gets drunk? What if he gets angry about something, drinks, ...." While I trusted my neighbor, that never thought of his weapon that it was a toy - something to have fun with it, that even drunken he would act responsible with his weapon - means not touching it I dont trust someone that gets joy from weapons. Because when you are drunk, som epople simply follow their instincts, so they do what gives them joy. If you see a weapon as a tool, there is no fun about it. But people enjoying weapons have to deal with the risc.

I want to say again, that I dont know you, so I cant say if this behavement you show, is simply a careless joke because internet let us all behave with less care, simply because we cant physicly hurt each other on the internet, so you need to care less about your behaving, or if you describe yourself in the way you really would behave.

Additional, some things simply seem weird for you if you are not used to them. So as US citizens it seems weird for you, when women go topless on european beaches, as much is it weird for me when I see funpics of Hillbillies with "some kind of big,big weapon" ^^ waiting in a fast food restaurant. So maybe its allowed in his county and so on, thats not the problem. In my country it is also allowed to order your fast food while wearing a pink ballet costume. But none of this is compared to anything you need to have, when you are ordering fast food, so anyway if pink ballet dress or big weapon, it gives you the thought that the person in front of you is not sane. So its not that he would be doing something that was forbidden, but simply something that has no sense in the actual situation. Which leaves me mistrusting his insanity. So I visit LARPS and midievil markets as well, and if I met there someone with a sword and a bow, I wouldnt whonder as I wont whonder myself if I meet some hunters with weapons in the woods. But if I meet a person with a sword and a bow at Burger Kings, it would be no less weird then any other weapon, simply because you dont need a weapon for ordering a burger, so the action of the person makes no sense to you, which leads to a mistrust of the persons sanity.

So its not pro-weapons guy as majority, that I mistrust. I fully respect every person that is capable of handling his/her weapon in a responsible way, and that sees its weapons as something that must be taken care of and not used without the necessity to it. I am also no blind deerlover, I am engineer for environmenteal building, know about ecology and that, because of missing natural enemies, rabbits, deers, .... populations would explode if you dont care for a natural limit. So I dont see anything bad about shooting some of them and also use their flesh. But again: As long as I can trust the pople to act in a responsible way, meaning there can be no "I THOUGHT it was a wild boar." but in the "If I KNOW what it is, I shoot, not if I think to know what it is." way. But this "funweapon bambambambam rambo" attitude is something I deeply dont trust, because I dont know if a person that thinks of his own weapon as a funtoy is him/herself aware that the use of this tool has to be taken very cautionous, when he is actually gaming with it and using it as toy to create fun and joy to him.

Its not about weapon ownage or not, but responsible weapon ownage. So having a weapon owner as my old neighbor around me again as neighbor, would lead to a feeling of safety. While a person, carelessly handling his/her weapon out of fun, for shooting at bugs, does the exact opposite. He/She is simply a security risc, not enhancing safety for her neighbors.

For a third time, I want to repeat that I dont think that people act in reality in the way as they act in the internet. So please dont feel offended if the way you care in reality for your weapons and handle them, dont fit the way you behave on the internet.

What specific rights are you referring to? I'll throw out some random ones, see if they ring any bells.

Kelo allows the state to take your land against your will and give it to developers for practically any reason they want.

Under the PATRIOT act, not only can you be warrantlessly spied on on the flimsiest of pretexts, but the people compelled to provide your information are bound upon pain of felony not to tell you that you were investigated.

You may or may not be extrajudicially assassinated on order of the President; he's been notably coy about what the limits of that power are.

In many states, the police can stop you, take your stuff, and then file charges against the property, which is guilty until proven innocent, at your considerable expense.

Gun ownership just got much more restricted in a number of mostly East Coast states.

The police can kick in your door in the middle of the night, shoot your dogs, shoot you if they think you made a "furtive movement", trash your house, and hold you and your family at gunpoint for hours on the word of an unreliable snitch. Often enough, they get the wrong house.

If you work for the government and report lawbreaking by other people in the government, you will go to jail.

A prosecutor can lie through his teeth at your trial, send you to prison for decades, and when DNA exonerates you and audio tapes emerge of said prosecutor admitting he lied to get the conviction, there's still nothing you can do, you can't even sue him for damages, because prosecutors enjoy absolute immunity even in cases of blatant misconduct with real harm done.

Anonymous travel has become nearly impossible in many areas due to the proliferation of automatic license plate reading and tracking systems.

I could go on.

LaPierre has said the only reason why the government doesn't crack down on civil liberties is because the presence of gun. The civil rights movement, and the gay rights movement hardly made gains by armed force. I seriously doubt Obama is conspiring to take away anyone's rights. LaPierre is a crackpot.

And as far as conservatives in the Northwest are concerned - as one person who had written a letter to the Spokesman Review newspaper here in the greater Spokane area had said, that as a member of a military family who had been in places like Alabama, conservatives in Spokane were much milder. It's not a matter of whether we have conservatives here, but rather, it's a matter of degree.

That hardly qualifies someone as a crackpot and he's not all wrong about that, either.


Remember that the Weavers lived in Bonner's Ferry Idaho. We've talked at some length about them here before as I recall. The NW is not without others of their tribe.
That aside, are you implying that the left has no crackpots, lunatics, or nutjobs for members?
Or is it okay for them to be unhinged since their hearts are in the right place?

This is too easy so at least add some variety to it just for kicks
At least tell me that you've had someone near and dear die as a result of gun violence. Doesn't have to be true just throw it up there and see if it sticks.
Add some fiery indignation to it by calling me an insensitive douchebag or a troll.
Just something different than the usual canned rhetoric.
Something to sleep on.
It's bedtime here in Dogpatch.

I don't even know where to start with this so I'll just say that I see a lot of very naive assumptions made and nothing to base them on.