do you strive to be a true christian?

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Lots of sheep and goats to sacrifice as well.

Many fundies and holy rollers would be outraged if you were to tell them Jesus wasn't an American.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

Have you read the Bible any?

The "prosperity gospel" that is fashionable in some circles comes from Old Testament teachings about building wealth. The idea is that if God approves of what you're doing, he'll bless you with an abundance of material possessions and monetary wealth. While there is nothing WRONG with that idea, it got twisted around to mean that you were only approved before God if you were rich. The 12 believed that in Jesus' day. Jesus said it would be easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to be saved. To His followers, if it was that difficult for a rich man to enter heaven, it would be impossible for those who had sold all they had to follow Jesus. Jesus responded by saying that with men this is impossible, but with God ALL things are possible--even for rich people to get into heaven. It was never about the money or other earthly riches. The money is only a problem if it somehow serves as a distraction from what God wants for us.

Jesus NEVER said there was a problem with wealth or building wealth. However, it is said that to whom much is given, much is expected. If someone handles wealth responsibly, God will likely bless that person with more wealth. I mean, the Bible gives a few simple rules that work to build wealth every time--my favorite two are don't live beyond your means and stay out of debt. For everything you need, pay in cash. When you run out of cash, don't buy any more crap, and don't go into debt to buy more crap. There are a few things beyond that you can keep in mind when handling money that pretty much involves making wise decisions. But probably the most important thing the Bible teaches about money is to be generous. There are people mentioned in the NT who retained positions of nobility or continued wealth-building activity in the course of their ministry and were indispensable in the early church, largely because they were so generous with what they had.

So, yes, we can ask for material blessings, we can be responsible with what God gives us and see if he gives us more. But the modern Christian idea of God giving you everything you want like a grandfather spoiling a grandchild comes from some of those charismatic prosperity gospel types that aren't teaching consistent with the Bible on the matter of wealth. The main issue as I see it is the whole "blab it and grab it" theology they sell, which is honestly more of a New Age thought than a Christian thought. The idea is all we have to do is speak something into existence and it's there. If you read the Old Testament you'll notice a distinction between sorcery or practicing magic and what God commanded the Israelites. Magic and/or sorcery doesn't stop at asking God or gods to grant a petitioner's request. It goes so far as to incur the gods' favor and even manipulate the gods into granting the request or demand. OT religion begins with acknowledging the low estate of mankind as sinners and ends with reconciliation with the Creator. Instead of man reaching up, God reaches down. The sacrificial system is merely man's confession that death is the penalty for all sin and that only the blood of the innocent as a substitute for us can turn away God's wrath. The kicker is that the one offering the sacrifice must be genuinely repentant and a willing giver or the sacrifice isn't a sacrifice. Without willing obedience, it doesn't count. The contrast with other religions is that it lacks the "what's in it for me" attitude essential to most forms of idolatry. "Blab it and grab it" is simply idolatry that slaps God's name on it to disguise what it really is: Magic. And it frequently disappoints the seeker when it doesn't provide what it promises. The only people who profit from prosperity gospel are "church" leaders who preach it. In short, it's a scam.

MOST Christian denominations steer clear of prosperity gospel. It's probably one of the most widespread heresies being taught within the charismatic movement and hardly represents what most Christians believe in regards to acquiring and managing wealth.

There are a couple of Scriptures, (among many), I fail on.
:-
"he that is isolating himself is seeking his own selfish" something or other, I cannot remember where these scriptures are.
The other one is, "do not forsake the gathering of yourselves together, and all the more so as you behold the day getting near".

Now as an Aspie, apart from going to work, Iam pretty much a hermit, so Iam certainly isolating myself.

Other issues I have with religion, apart from the ones already mentioned, 99.9% of claimed "Christian religions", worship and claim Jesus to be God himself, whereas I read that Jesus is Gods son, his High Priest and King according to the manner of Melchizedek, worshiping a creation as God himself sounds to me more like Satanism hence that is another reason I do not attend any of these Trinity churches.

I guess I need more mercy than the others?

There is a church teaching the prosperity gospel in my own Spokane Valley that had fired their pastor. It seems he wasn't rich enough to be truly blessed by God.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

Jesus taught pure communism and that the wealth of the rich should be redistributed to the poor.

He certainly hadn't taught unrestrained capitalism.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

If Jesus taught Liberal Capitalism it would have been very easy for rich people to follow him as long as the rich became generous philanthropists. However Jesus told the rich to sell all of their possessions and give to the poor which is effectively taking a vow of poverty.

Bethlehem is in Pennsylvania so they are right.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bethlehem,_Pennsylvania

For the Holy Rollers.

Last edited by Misslizard on 17 Jun 2013, 8:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Jesus didn't advocate for ANY socioeconomic system. I think He DID teach us to work towards equality for all believers and, by extension, for all the world. The only trouble with equality is while it sounds great in a perfect world, not everyone wants it. People tend to be drawn to power and opportunity to lord it over others. People tend to emerge as leaders...which isn't a bad thing if they're leaders for the right reasons. You're not going to get true equality in capitalism nor communism because you can't make everyone WANT it.

If Jesus kept Mosaic Law, then He'd have been well aware that ancient law had built-in welfare systems and judicial safety nets. This might have been obscured by Pharisee practices and dependence on tradition in addition and sometimes superseding the written law, but those things were well established in written law. The ancient written law was amazingly equitable when carried out consistently. It's an early example of lex talionis, which is remarkably like western justice systems. You know, "eye for an eye," and we take things a step further by having things like health and liability insurance...the first to cover otherwise unaffordable medical expenses, and the other to protect people from lawsuits that might ultimately result in financial ruin. Insurance companies represent the interests of both plaintiff and defendant such that personal injuries need never be heard in court. Sure, there often ARE unresolvable issues, but the point is that no one has to "be tested more than he can bear." The ancient Israelite system would have the extent of personal injury evaluated and the person responsible would then have to pay that amount. If they could not, they could incur a debt that would NOT accrue interest and be paid within a reasonable amount of time. Debts lasting more than a certain time period were forgiven. Imagine THAT in today's society!! !

The ancient Israelites believed that no one really OWNED land...only God owned land. So if you were in debt you could "sell" your land to pay back the debt, but at a certain point all land reverted back to the original clans that were assigned to them. Parts of crops were set aside for the poor. Even Isaiah said that when fasting to the Lord one should give meals to the poor. In dealing with the realities of marginalized female status in the ancient world, there were laws in place to protect women and see that they were treated decently and respectfully. Even a female slave taken captured in battle who was forced into marriage to one of her captors was to be given the same rights as a free Israelite woman. And if her captor divorced her, she could never be returned to slavery. Slaves could run away from abusive masters, and their new masters were forbidden to return them.

The ancient system that Jesus was born into was supposed to espouse these kinds of things, and Jesus never would have argued with them. Some things under the Biblical system resemble a capitalist system, other things resemble communism or socialism in subtle ways.

How foolish of me - I ought to have known better!

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

That was how the Roman Catholic Church wanted people to see things. The RCC is a bank more than anything else and most of its political power was derived from its wealth.

There is nothing wrong with money...it's the LOVE of money that's the problem.

God can use people with wealth as well as people with nothing to their name.

So what prevented the rich young ruler from selling all that he had and giving to the poor? It was the love of money. Unless a person loves money there is no rational reason to hold on to money while letting the poor suffer. Under Christianity the needs of the people come first.

Of course the filthy rich billionaires will say that Jesus died for their sins so it no longer matters whether or not they keep their money because you cannot earn your salvation. So these billionaires love their money so much that they would allow an innocent man to die so they would not have give one dime to the poor and still claim to be righteous in front of God? And worse these rich billionaires denounce charitable men as evil communists who love to give handouts to the undeserving poor. So that means that the billionaires were never sinners in the first place but were actually righteous men who blessed by God and in reality if you were poor that means that God cursed you so who's fault was that?

That's what you'd like to think. I think Christians who are happy being wealthy dread the idea of giving all their money and properties away. Not that I blame them. Who wants to get rid of all his earnings anyway just to follow someone whom you're not really sure actually exists?

Well, billionaires don't really cling that tightly to their money, though. Billionaires don't become billionaires without being generous with their money. They become billionaires because the products and services they roll out happen on such a grand scale that they couldn't stop the money flowing in if they tried. Bill and Melinda Gates can't unload their money fast enough. Apple donates part of their sales of the Product (Red) line to supporting HIV treatment and prevention in Africa. I've personally seen church leaders help out homeless people when they ring the church doorbell and others ride with poor transients to fill up their vehicles with fuel to help them get to their sick mother in Alabama, etc. Our church, which until recently was largely an affluent congregation, maintains a benevolent fund that provides financial assistance to church members who have fallen on hard times--I mean, money will just suddenly appear out of nowhere, no questions are asked, and no one asks for it to be paid back. Billionaires, whether they are Christian or not, and churches are often charitable and do not denounce others engaged in acts of charity. One GOOD reason NOT to "sell all you have and give to the poor" is when selling all you have prevents you from building wealth you can be generous with.

Any single person's first financial obligation will be to tend to his own needs. THEN he has to support his family if he has one. Only after that can a person even think about being generous to give to others. Billionaires work hard to get where they are and they aren't all a bunch of evil jerks. And if they have money rolling in too fast to count it all and have nothing left to do with it--AFTER paying employees, AFTER buying a suitable living space, AFTER taking care of themselves, wives, kids can they make the decision to give it away. And they give away PLENTY.

It wasn't the love of money that prevented the rich young ruler from giving it away. Remember, in Jesus' day the prevailing thought was that your righteousness was measured by the value of all your material possessions. Rich people were rich because they were more righteous than everyone else. Remember Jesus told the rich young ruler first that he had to obey the commandments. The man said that he'd ALWAYS kept the commandments. But Jesus knew that the man was evaluating his own standing before God based on his wealth, not his willingness to place his faith in Jesus. The young man found placing his faith in wealth to be easier than to place his faith in something he couldn't quite see so clearly at that time. The young man wasn't prevented by his wealth or love for it. He was prevented from following Jesus by his LACK OF FAITH.

Rich people and poor people alike who have placed their faith in the atoning work of Jesus on the cross will all meet up in heaven. The thing to remember, though, is that in heaven "the last will be first and the first will be last." I suppose the people in the middle will stay right where they are, but the point is that in death and in the resurrection we will all be equal. The parable of the wages comes to mind...the first workers who worked all day and the last workers hired later in the afternoon all got paid the same wages. It doesn't matter WHEN the decision is made as long as the decision is made before the day, i.e. one's lifetime, is over. We'll all receive the same wages or reward. People who have the ability to work their tails off and make billions also have the ability to do more for everyone else. They are servants with a heavy amount of responsibility. I don't begrudge those people one dime of what they earn. They are blessings to those whose lives they've improved through their generosity.

That's not to say there aren't those who DON'T deserve what they've been given. Yes, there are dishonest people out there. A lot of them end up broke and in jail, too. I live below the poverty line, and, such as it is, people like Gates, Jobs, and Sam Walton have made my life easier if anything--not because I've personally received any monetary benefits from them, but because they have great products that really have served me well. OK, well...Walmart sucks in my town, however I don't mind the crowds and long lines for the 4 or 5 times a year I really have to go to Walmart for things I can't get elsewhere. I think a society in which we reward those for the good they do is a strong society. Being angry at people for being smart, capable leaders who happen to bring in more money than you isn't a very constructive attitude, nor does it really help things and other people.