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sephardic-male
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19 Dec 2013, 4:18 pm

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Sure it does. If it can be shown the charts were devised to only show YOUR point of view, and not a true comparison of the salient facts....all of them, then they're invalid.


conditions in developed countries are different from third world countries. take it up with the OECD if you don't like the charts


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For example why do you choose only developed countries??????? Is it because people in many undeveloped countries HAVE access to guns while many (Great B., Canada, etc.) have CONFISCATED guns from their people??????? Hardly a fair showing on your graph is it??? To be fair why not compare countries where people have the right to own a weapon????? More accurate now???


guns are not confiscated in Canada. unlike the U.S there are regulations and rules to be followed before owning guns. owning a gun is a privilege not a right. if you are not a hunter, police or military don't need a gun


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All you've shown with your chart is how to overly/narrowly define an argument to your advantage.



pot meets kettle


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sliqua-jcooter
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19 Dec 2013, 4:25 pm

sephardic-male wrote:
guns are not confiscated in Canada.


http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/rcmp-gu ... t-1.958226


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19 Dec 2013, 4:29 pm

The U.S has regulations and rules as well, as far as I know....I am sure even in Canada and other places there are those who aqquire guns illegally...same thing can happen in the U.S, doesn't mean there are no rules or regulations in the U.S.


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ZenDen
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19 Dec 2013, 4:30 pm

sliqua-jcooter wrote:
sephardic-male wrote:
guns are not confiscated in Canada.


http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/rcmp-gu ... t-1.958226


And this takes us back to the question of why people continue to pass on disinformation when the facts are there for all to see. I guess people just feel better working from their "gut" instead of relying on facts?? My wife says she's like that.



sephardic-male
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19 Dec 2013, 4:32 pm

sliqua-jcooter wrote:
sephardic-male wrote:
guns are not confiscated in Canada.


http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/rcmp-gu ... t-1.958226


this is an isolated case which happens 2 years ago.


Firearms classification in Canada
All firearms in Canada fall within three groups when classified.

Non-restricted:

Description: Most long guns, rifles and shotguns. Use: Range shooting and hunting.

Restricted:

Description: All non-prohibited handguns; rifles or shotguns with a barrel length less than 470 mm; semi-automatic rifles and shotguns; weapons that can be folded to less than 660 mm in length. Use: Range and target shooting.

Prohibited:

Description: Handguns with a barrel length equal to or less than 105 mm; .25-calibre or .32-calibre handguns; rifles or shotguns that are adapted to an overall length of less than 660 mm or that are longer than 660 mm but have a barrel less than 457 mm in length; fully automatic firearms; converted automatics. Use: Police.

( Canadian Firearms Program)


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American
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19 Dec 2013, 4:36 pm

michaelhart22 wrote:
Everyday theres a shooting on the news or cnn or what ever. beit a school shooting, or in hospital. what are americans shooting each other for? are they trying to prove somthing or are they just gun ho crazy? seriosuly in Canada we only use are guns for hunting and substnince. crazy.


I'm sure people in Canada kill others unjustly with guns too.



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19 Dec 2013, 4:51 pm

Surely, the relevant figures would be comparing a country before it brought in gun control with the same country after bringing in gun control, giving say 5-10 years either side and trying to account for other effects? For example, the changes in the UK homicide rate other the past century do not correlate with gun control legislation enacted during that time, which suggests that the legislation should never have been passed (and should be repealed). I don't know what the Canadian and Australian figures are, though.

But you shouldn't compare dissimilar countries to try and prove something. Compare Switzerland to the UK in terms of firearm ownership and homicide rate...



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19 Dec 2013, 4:52 pm

sephardic-male wrote:
this is an isolated case which happens 2 years ago.


I'm intimately familiar with Canadian firearms law - as well as many other countries - and what happened was the RCMP decided to re-classify a firearm after people had started buying them and went back and took them all back - all based on criteria that the RCMP wouldn't prove - they claimed that the guns could be "easily" converted to full-auto and provided 0 documentation to back up their claim.

They then went around and forced the owners of these firearms to turn them in, or be jailed. The length of time doesn't matter at all - what matters is that the government has actively been involved in forcibly disarming its' citizens on an arbitrary basis.

In contrast, when the ATF re-classified the Armsel Striker as a "destructive device", which made it subject to the NFA - none of the guns were confiscated - they merely couldn't be transferred again without going through the NFA process.


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American
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19 Dec 2013, 4:59 pm

sliqua-jcooter wrote:
They then went around and forced the owners of these firearms to turn them in, or be jailed. The length of time doesn't matter at all - what matters is that the government has actively been involved in forcibly disarming its' citizens on an arbitrary basis.


That is kind of what New York is doing. Even though our Constitution guarantees us the right to keep and bear arms, the Courts have done little to uphold that important right. The Courts are vigilant about supporting the right to abortion--which is not in the Constitution--but not the right to keep and bear arms. Thank liberals.



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19 Dec 2013, 5:02 pm

American wrote:
sliqua-jcooter wrote:
They then went around and forced the owners of these firearms to turn them in, or be jailed. The length of time doesn't matter at all - what matters is that the government has actively been involved in forcibly disarming its' citizens on an arbitrary basis.


That is kind of what New York is doing. Even though our Constitution guarantees us the right to keep and bear arms, the Courts have done little to uphold that important right. The Courts are vigilant about supporting the right to abortion--which is not in the Constitution--but not the right to keep and bear arms. Thank liberals.


There's pending lawsuits against the SAFE act legislation. With Bloomberg leaving office in the city, I think we'll see many of the new regulations there quietly disappear before SCOTUS throws them out everywhere.


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Last edited by sliqua-jcooter on 19 Dec 2013, 5:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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19 Dec 2013, 5:05 pm

American wrote:
sliqua-jcooter wrote:
They then went around and forced the owners of these firearms to turn them in, or be jailed. The length of time doesn't matter at all - what matters is that the government has actively been involved in forcibly disarming its' citizens on an arbitrary basis.


That is kind of what New York is doing. Even though our Constitution guarantees us the right to keep and bear arms, the Courts have done little to uphold that important right. The Courts are vigilant about supporting the right to abortion--which is not in the Constitution--but not the right to keep and bear arms. Thank liberals.


Hopefully if I tell you I beg you from the bottom of my heart not to maintain the liberal/conservative stupid debate that NEVER goes anywhere you might relent????



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19 Dec 2013, 5:10 pm

sliqua-jcooter wrote:
sephardic-male wrote:
this is an isolated case which happens 2 years ago.


I'm intimately familiar with Canadian firearms law - as well as many other countries - and what happened was the RCMP decided to re-classify a firearm after people had started buying them and went back and took them all back - all based on criteria that the RCMP wouldn't prove - they claimed that the guns could be "easily" converted to full-auto and provided 0 documentation to back up their claim.

They then went around and forced the owners of these firearms to turn them in, or be jailed. The length of time doesn't matter at all - what matters is that the government has actively been involved in forcibly disarming its' citizens on an arbitrary basis.

In contrast, when the ATF re-classified the Armsel Striker as a "destructive device", which made it subject to the NFA - none of the guns were confiscated - they merely couldn't be transferred again without going through the NFA process.


Good points.

If I may add: The RCMP earlier this year also confiscated guns in Alberta by breaking into peoples homes and stealing them. Many Canadian citizens are angry with the government for their oppression.



American
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19 Dec 2013, 5:12 pm

ZenDen wrote:
American wrote:
sliqua-jcooter wrote:
They then went around and forced the owners of these firearms to turn them in, or be jailed. The length of time doesn't matter at all - what matters is that the government has actively been involved in forcibly disarming its' citizens on an arbitrary basis.


That is kind of what New York is doing. Even though our Constitution guarantees us the right to keep and bear arms, the Courts have done little to uphold that important right. The Courts are vigilant about supporting the right to abortion--which is not in the Constitution--but not the right to keep and bear arms. Thank liberals.


Hopefully if I tell you I beg you from the bottom of my heart not to maintain the liberal/conservative stupid debate that NEVER goes anywhere you might relent????


I don't subscribe to the left/right paradigm but I talk as though I do sometimes. My political beliefs are based on reason and thus I am not a liberal, conservative, or libertarian. But I do know that, when it comes to most important issues, liberal Democrats are hateful, hypocritical, and wrong.



American
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19 Dec 2013, 5:13 pm

ZenDen wrote:

If I may add: The RCMP earlier this year also confiscated guns in Alberta by breaking into peoples homes and stealing them. Many Canadian citizens are angry with the government for their oppression.


In America that would violate the Fourth and Second Amendments.



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19 Dec 2013, 5:14 pm

ZenDen wrote:
Good points.

If I may add: The RCMP earlier this year also confiscated guns in Alberta by breaking into peoples homes and stealing them. Many Canadian citizens are angry with the government for their oppression.


To be fair, this was action taken while the area was evacuated due to flooding. And a similar thing happened in the US during the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, where the National Guard and New Orleans PD confiscated guns from the households of people who were stuck there. The difference is that ultimately NOPD officials who were doing this were tried, and the National Guard's orders were rescinded and generally heads rolled.


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19 Dec 2013, 5:33 pm

Already done a comparison of murder rate and firearm ownership worldwide for developed countries. You know, breaking them down into a couple of groups based on ownership rates and comparing the murder rates.

No difference.

Yeah, the US by itself has a higher murder rate than many others, but if firearms were actually the cause of that, it'd show worldwide. It doesn't.