Red Death - The Horrors Of Communism

Page 4 of 11 [ 166 posts ] Go to page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 ... 11 Next

Previous topic | Next topic

Nambo
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 31 Aug 2007
Age: 66
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,882
Location: Prussia

19 Feb 2014, 3:15 pm

appletheclown wrote:

People dieing under Capitalism is different than people being ethnically cleansed by Communism. Communism's mass killing were ALL deliberate. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM.

What about Western colonialism, if that was not Capitalism, it was certainly a precursor to it and they certainly did a lot of ethnic cleansing.

krankes_hirn
Deinonychus

Joined: 26 Sep 2007
Age: 37
Gender: Male
Posts: 355
Location: Mexico City

19 Feb 2014, 3:19 pm

Nambo wrote:

appletheclown wrote:

People dieing under Capitalism is different than people being ethnically cleansed by Communism. Communism's mass killing were ALL deliberate. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM.

What about Western colonialism, if that was not Capitalism, it was certainly a precursor to it and they certainly did a lot of ethnic cleansing.

So we should blame doctors now for the deaths caused for the older pactitoners of healing practices that turned out to be more dangerous than beneficial? They certainly were a precursor to modern medicine as well.

sonofghandi
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Age: 46
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,540
Location: Cleveland, OH (and not the nice part)

19 Feb 2014, 3:37 pm

appletheclown wrote:

sonofghandi wrote:

krankes_hirn wrote:

We have had n iterations with different characteristics of applying communism, and the vast majority ends up with a crazy dictator, lots of dead and impoverishment. And still people come and say "We should do cummunism, this time we'll get it right though there's nothing realy different betwwen what we are attempting and all those failures. There's something really flawed with communism and people keep saying "Oh, well. Next time we'll get it right"

You could substitute any form of government into this statement in the place of "communism" and it would still read true, although in some cases you would also have to substitute the words, "a crazy dictator" with "an elite and exclusive minority in power."

Republics, Democracies and Pacifistic Nationalist States are no where near as bad as Communist, Fascist,
or Imperialist States.

You can't substitute any form just because you say they can.

I was not making any comparison other than there are no forms of government that have not become a means for the wealthy and/or powerful to become wealthier and/or more powerful at the expense of the masses.

I would have to argue that Imperialism has a very poor track record, but would agree that democracies and republics tend to hold out against massive atrocity better than most other forms of government.

_________________
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently" -Nietzsche

The_Walrus
Forum Moderator

Joined: 27 Jan 2010
Age: 30
Gender: Male
Posts: 8,878
Location: London

19 Feb 2014, 4:30 pm

Totalitarianism and authoritarianism are distinct from communism (but not mutually exclusive). Often, but not always, societies which claim to be communist exhibit totalitarian and/or authoritarian qualities.

My problems with communism are:
1) It is overly utopian
2) It disregards the plus sides to capitalism

The massacres committed by authoritarian, totalitarian, communist states are no more relevant to my impression of communism than the massacres committed by totalitarian, authoritarian German states are to my impression of Germany.

Kurgan wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

No, as none of those actually fit the definition of communism....none of those are classless societies.

Quote:

Liam says to Duncan, "No Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge." To which Duncan replies, "My friend Angus puts sugar on his porridge and he's a Scotsman." Liam retorts, "Ah, but no true Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge."

False analogy.

Liam says to Duncan "all Scots have lived in Scotland for part of their life, or have a close relative who has lived in Scotland for part of their life".

You can't apply the "no true Scotsman" fallacy if the failing a supposed group has is analytically possessed by all members of a group.

thomas81
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 2 May 2012
Age: 44
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,147
Location: County Down, Northern Ireland

19 Feb 2014, 4:47 pm

appletheclown wrote:

The fact it has only one author, no citing, no source for research, and no deliberation at all, makes me think only one biased commie wrote that article or had any part in it.

People dieing under Capitalism is different than people being ethnically cleansed by Communism. Communism's mass killing were ALL deliberate. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM.

thats a lie. The holodomor and the Cultural Revolution weren't designed for the specific purpose of wiping people out. They were calamities caused by faulty economic policies designed to catapult the Soviet Union and China into hyper industrial powers. Nothing more, nothing less.

If you're basing culpibility on the basis of the end result rather than the motive, then the starvation of the people of Africa and their associated adversities is every bit as much the responsibility of global capitalism as the above is the fault of Mao and Stalin.

Simply because they don't operate under the banner or identity of state doesn't somehow absolve them.

_________________
Being 'normal' is over rated.

My deviant art profile

thomas81
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 2 May 2012
Age: 44
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,147
Location: County Down, Northern Ireland

19 Feb 2014, 4:52 pm

The_Walrus wrote:

My problems with communism are:
1) It is overly utopian
2) It disregards the plus sides to capitalism

My problem is that capitalism is yet to prove the plus sides outweigh the colossal weight of negativity and destruction.

The empirical evidence in my view, proves it does not.

It seems that the plus sides are praised by the miniscule elite class of its benficiaries. Thats hardly a surprise.

_________________
Being 'normal' is over rated.

My deviant art profile

thomas81
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 2 May 2012
Age: 44
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,147
Location: County Down, Northern Ireland

19 Feb 2014, 4:55 pm

krankes_hirn wrote:

Nambo wrote:

appletheclown wrote:

People dieing under Capitalism is different than people being ethnically cleansed by Communism. Communism's mass killing were ALL deliberate. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM.

What about Western colonialism, if that was not Capitalism, it was certainly a precursor to it and they certainly did a lot of ethnic cleansing.

you could argue that the biggest impedance to the introduction of new medicines has been the Christian church, which is in no small measure a bedfellow of western imperialism and of the capitalist system.

_________________
Being 'normal' is over rated.

My deviant art profile

appletheclown
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 5 Apr 2013
Age: 32
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,378
Location: Soul Society

19 Feb 2014, 7:08 pm

Nambo wrote:

appletheclown wrote:

People dieing under Capitalism is different than people being ethnically cleansed by Communism. Communism's mass killing were ALL deliberate. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM.

What about Western colonialism, if that was not Capitalism, it was certainly a precursor to it and they certainly did a lot of ethnic cleansing.

True, true, I agree with that.

_________________
comedic burp

Sweetleaf
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 6 Jan 2011
Age: 35
Gender: Female
Posts: 35,132
Location: Somewhere in Colorado

19 Feb 2014, 8:20 pm

luanqibazao wrote:

Nambo wrote:

Has true Communism ever existed?

No, and it never will. There will never be a country in which everybody happily marches off each morning to whatever job the Collective assigns him, eager to work hard all day for the benefit of others with nary a thought for himself. That may be a fair description of ants, if ants had complex emotions and ethical theories, but it does not describe human beings.

Collectivism has now been tried in every conceivable form and in dozens of countries, and outside some small, voluntary religious communities, it has always resulted in slavery, famine, and death. At this point for any adult to look at the historical record and say "Oh, it just hasn't been implemented right, my gang would do it better," requires an act of willful evasion which boggles my mind.

That is hardly the way communism would work...people would contribute what they can for the benefit of 'everyone' that includes them selves. Also why would people have to work hard all day every day? Also I have yet to see an example of communism resulting in that death, slavery and famine, societies one might point out never where communist to begin with.

_________________
Eat the rich, feed the poor. No not literally idiot, cannibalism is gross.

Sweetleaf
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 6 Jan 2011
Age: 35
Gender: Female
Posts: 35,132
Location: Somewhere in Colorado

19 Feb 2014, 8:24 pm

drh1138 wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

No, as none of those actually fit the definition of communism....none of those are classless societies.

This "No True Scotsman" logic that leftists (including, formerly, myself, though I was always on the libertarian end of the left wing, and never admired the USSR) employ in response to every indictment of the consequences of communist ideology is a red herring; it doesn't matter if the society in question was some nebulous and unachievable "communist" utopia or a proletarian "socialist" dictatorship -- it operated upon the principles of Marxism, and had disastrous consequences for just about everyone involved. Playing with definitions doesn't detract from what it was.

George Orwell, '1984' wrote:

We know that no one ever seizes power with the intention of relinquishing it. Power is not a means; it is an end. One does not establish a dictatorship in order to safeguard a revolution; one makes the revolution in order to establish the dictatorship. The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power.

f

Assuming communism is a classless society, how did any of those societies operate on the principles of Marxism? As far as I know the intent of communism never involved having a dictator or totalitarianism. There is the bit about potentially violent revolution which I don't agree with...but Marx hardly created the whole concept of a community based society. Also if such societies do not fit the definition of communism which they don't as they fall under toltalitarianism....how does it make any amount of sense to blame the disastrous consequences on 'communism' if it wasn't communism?

And I have no idea what you are on about with red herrings and 'no true scotsman logic'.....how is it irrational to blame the disastrous results of say the soviet union on totalitarianism rather than communism when it was in fact a totalitarian system rather than a communist system?

_________________
Eat the rich, feed the poor. No not literally idiot, cannibalism is gross.

Sweetleaf
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 6 Jan 2011
Age: 35
Gender: Female
Posts: 35,132
Location: Somewhere in Colorado

19 Feb 2014, 8:32 pm

krankes_hirn wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

No, as none of those actually fit the definition of communism....none of those are classless societies.

That argument really has gotten old. We have had n iterations with different characteristics of applying communism, and the vast majority ends up with a crazy dictator, lots of dead and impoverishment. And still people come and say "We should do cummunism, this time we'll get it right though there's nothing realy different betwwen what we are attempting and all those failures. There's something really flawed with communism and people keep saying "Oh, well. Next time we'll get it right"

That being said, defenders of communism always end up using logical fallacies to defend whatever they are saying because somehow they think that if they can make their ideas sound good or seem to make sense, that is enough for it to make sense.

Look at what's happening in Venezuela. I still can't believe there are people defending that government. I cna believe there are people still saying that communism is worth a try.

Wow you should be a psychiatrist, since you're so wonderful at psychoanalyzing people :roll:

Also I have a feeling Venezuela is not an example of communism either, from what I hear they have a pretty oppressive government which implies something closer to totalitarianism. I think the logical fallacy would be blaming 'communism' for problems created by psedo-communist totalitarian dictatorships.

_________________
Eat the rich, feed the poor. No not literally idiot, cannibalism is gross.

appletheclown
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 5 Apr 2013
Age: 32
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,378
Location: Soul Society

19 Feb 2014, 8:49 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:

krankes_hirn wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

No, as none of those actually fit the definition of communism....none of those are classless societies.

Wow you should be a psychiatrist, since you're so wonderful at psychoanalyzing people :roll:

You people who call yourselves communists seem to forget communism is an economic model, not truly a model if government.

A democratic communism is not what Marx wanted at all.

_________________
comedic burp

drh1138
Velociraptor

Joined: 2 Dec 2012
Gender: Male
Posts: 498

19 Feb 2014, 8:55 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:

And I have no idea what you are on about with red herrings and 'no true scotsman logic'.....how is it irrational to blame the disastrous results of say the soviet union on totalitarianism rather than communism when it was in fact a totalitarian system rather than a communist system?

Because it's counting the 'hits' and ignoring the 'misses'. It's the same flawed logic behind a Christian proclaiming a single baby surviving a natural disaster a 'miracle' while conveniently ignoring everyone else who died. Or a scientist so focused on the purported outcome of a flawed hypothesis that he or she ignores any failures as a refutation of said hypothesis.

Except, imagine that when this scientist's experiments fail to produce the intended results, two hundred million people incidentally die.

I'm not going to argue this point any further, because I used to spout this same rhetoric myself, and I know how it works; you'll simply repeat that the USSR and Maoist China weren't "true communist" systems, because in your eyes the only thing that will ever 'count' is one that vindicates socialist ideology (which will never actually come about).

appletheclown
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 5 Apr 2013
Age: 32
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,378
Location: Soul Society

19 Feb 2014, 9:06 pm

drh1138 wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

This^

_________________
comedic burp

Sweetleaf
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 6 Jan 2011
Age: 35
Gender: Female
Posts: 35,132
Location: Somewhere in Colorado

19 Feb 2014, 9:17 pm

drh1138 wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

It has nothing to do with my opinion or anything 'in my eyes' none of these so called communist societies fit the definition of communism, they just don't fit. Whether or not it comes about is another debate....it just bothers me to no end people decide these totalitarian systems represent 'communism' when they do nothing of the sort. Whether or not actual communism can ever exist on a large scale is not the issue ...the point is the totalitarian systems used in this thread as examples of 'communism' don't fit the definition.

I don't see how pointing out such totalitarian systems are totalitarian rather than communist is in any way similar to a Christian claiming a single baby surviving a natural disaster is a miracle while ignoring the over-all death toll. I suppose my over-all point should be instead of fighting 'communism' totalitarianism should be fought since that is where the real problem lies.

_________________
Eat the rich, feed the poor. No not literally idiot, cannibalism is gross.

appletheclown
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 5 Apr 2013
Age: 32
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,378
Location: Soul Society

19 Feb 2014, 9:21 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:

drh1138 wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

Communism is about money, food, and shelter. Totalitarianism is about government. Those are all perfect examples of COMMUNIST Totalitarianism.

_________________
comedic burp

Page 4 of 11 [ 166 posts ] Go to page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 ... 11 Next

Jump to:

Red Death - The Horrors Of Communism Post Reply New Topic

Red Death - The Horrors Of Communism