What to do about "failing men?"
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB1 ... 1725889448
Not so long ago, the average American man in his 20s had achieved most of the milestones of adulthood: a high-school diploma, financial independence, marriage and children. Today, most men in their 20s hang out in a novel sort of limbo, a hybrid state of semi-hormonal adolescence and responsible self-reliance. This "pre-adulthood" has much to recommend it, especially for the college-educated. But it's time to state what has become obvious to legions of frustrated young women: It doesn't bring out the best in men.
"We are sick of hooking up with guys," ... "Guys talk about 'Star Wars' like it's not a movie made for people half their age; a guy's idea of a perfect night is a hang around the PlayStation with his bandmates, or a trip to Vegas with his college friends.... They are more like the kids we babysat than the dads who drove us home."...
....pre-adulthood represents a momentous sociological development. It's no exaggeration to say that having large numbers of single young men and women living independently, while also having enough disposable income to avoid ever messing up their kitchens, is something entirely new in human experience. Yes, at other points in Western history young people have waited well into their 20s to marry, and yes, office girls and bachelor lawyers have been working and finding amusement in cities for more than a century. But their numbers and their money supply were always relatively small. Today's pre-adults are a different matter. They are a major demographic event.
What also makes pre-adulthood something new is its radical reversal of the sexual hierarchy. Among pre-adults, women are the first sex. They graduate from college in greater numbers (among Americans ages 25 to 34, 34% of women now have a bachelor's degree but just 27% of men), and they have higher GPAs. As most professors tell it, they also have more confidence and drive. These strengths carry women through their 20s, when they are more likely than men to be in grad school and making strides in the workplace. In a number of cities, they are even out-earning their brothers and boyfriends.
Still, for these women, one key question won't go away: Where have the good men gone? Their male peers often come across as aging frat boys, maladroit geeks or grubby slackers—a gender gap neatly crystallized by the director Judd Apatow in his hit 2007 movie "Knocked Up." ...
...So where did these pre-adults come from? You might assume that their appearance is a result of spoiled 24-year-olds trying to prolong the campus drinking and hook-up scene while exploiting the largesse of mom and dad. But the causes run deeper than that. Beginning in the 1980s, the economic advantage of higher education—the "college premium"—began to increase dramatically. Between 1960 and 2000, the percentage of younger adults enrolled in college or graduate school more than doubled. In the "knowledge economy," good jobs go to those with degrees. And degrees take years....
...Pre-adulthood can be compared to adolescence, an idea invented in the mid-20th century as American teenagers were herded away from the fields and the workplace and into that new institution, the high school. For a long time, the poor and recent immigrants were not part of adolescent life; they went straight to work, since their families couldn't afford the lost labor and income. But the country had grown rich enough to carve out space and time to create a more highly educated citizenry and work force. Teenagers quickly became a marketing and cultural phenomenon. They also earned their own psychological profile. One of the most influential of the psychologists of adolescence was Erik Erikson, who described the stage as a "moratorium," a limbo between childhood and adulthood characterized by role confusion, emotional turmoil and identity conflict....
...What explains this puerile shallowness? I see it as an expression of our cultural uncertainty about the social role of men. It's been an almost universal rule of civilization that girls became women simply by reaching physical maturity, but boys had to pass a test. They needed to demonstrate courage, physical prowess or mastery of the necessary skills. The goal was to prove their competence as protectors and providers. Today, however, with women moving ahead in our advanced economy, husbands and fathers are now optional, and the qualities of character men once needed to play their roles—fortitude, stoicism, courage, fidelity—are obsolete, even a little embarrassing....
...Single men have never been civilization's most responsible actors; they continue to be more troubled and less successful than men who deliberately choose to become husbands and fathers. So we can be disgusted if some of them continue to live in rooms decorated with "Star Wars" posters and crushed beer cans and to treat women like disposable estrogen toys, but we shouldn't be surprised.
Relatively affluent, free of family responsibilities, and entertained by an array of media devoted to his every pleasure, the single young man can live in pig heaven—and often does. Women put up with him for a while, but then in fear and disgust either give up on any idea of a husband and kids or just go to a sperm bank and get the DNA without the troublesome man. But these rational choices on the part of women only serve to legitimize men's attachment to the sand box. Why should they grow up? No one needs them anyway. There's nothing they have to do....
There was a time when women were the secretaries.accountants..book keepers overall in the work place where the fingers did the work..instead of assertive brawn...
From my own experience..i think that technology is giving the edge to women..as women are naturally better multi-taskers than men..as they have a stronger empathic ability that is necessary for success in the workplace where social cognition and mechanical cognition are required for success...
The only real advantage men ever had over women..is physical muscular strength required to move things..and the ability to take and put things back together...in visual spatial abilities...
Even car mechanics now..rarely have to use a wrench to turn a rusted bolt...
And of course the lifetime secure jobs that made it easier to have a future plan of life..are outsourced to other countries...
Considering how complex the world is now..It's amazing to me that it works as well as it does...
If everyone decides not to care anymore..we are in real trouble...hopefully in this respect..women will continue to strive for excellence..overall..even if men overall do not....
But as long as the government keeps on sending me my retirement check..and my savings stay solvent..it's no longer my problem..thank GOD..
I wouldn't want to have to start all over at this point..to have any dream of financial independence..or any route there....
And nah..hell no i probably would never have gotten married..or have been divorced several times by now..as i doubt i would have been able to rein in my full sexual desires as a young person..
With all the T&A visible out there for perusing now....i know my nature..and i have to tame the beast..even at 53....
Oh god..i don't know were i would be at 21 with this much freedom of spirit..then...
Perhaps censorship of human spirit..is necessary to make a civilization of billions of human beings work...
But i no longer choose to live there..and thank GOD in the USA i have the freedom to work the laws to my benefit...to make a free life.. if for no one else but me...that's enough responsibility these days..i suppose...
to have peace of mind..i think...controlling one's own will is difficult enough...
_________________
KATiE MiA FredericK!iI
Gravatar is one of the coolest things ever!! !
http://en.gravatar.com/katiemiafrederick
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB1 ... 1725889448
Not so long ago, the average American man in his 20s had achieved most of the milestones of adulthood: a high-school diploma, financial independence, marriage and children. Today, most men in their 20s hang out in a novel sort of limbo, a hybrid state of semi-hormonal adolescence and responsible self-reliance. This "pre-adulthood" has much to recommend it, especially for the college-educated. But it's time to state what has become obvious to legions of frustrated young women: It doesn't bring out the best in men.
"We are sick of hooking up with guys," ... "Guys talk about 'Star Wars' like it's not a movie made for people half their age; a guy's idea of a perfect night is a hang around the PlayStation with his bandmates, or a trip to Vegas with his college friends.... They are more like the kids we babysat than the dads who drove us home."...
....pre-adulthood represents a momentous sociological development. It's no exaggeration to say that having large numbers of single young men and women living independently, while also having enough disposable income to avoid ever messing up their kitchens, is something entirely new in human experience. Yes, at other points in Western history young people have waited well into their 20s to marry, and yes, office girls and bachelor lawyers have been working and finding amusement in cities for more than a century. But their numbers and their money supply were always relatively small. Today's pre-adults are a different matter. They are a major demographic event.
What also makes pre-adulthood something new is its radical reversal of the sexual hierarchy. Among pre-adults, women are the first sex. They graduate from college in greater numbers (among Americans ages 25 to 34, 34% of women now have a bachelor's degree but just 27% of men), and they have higher GPAs. As most professors tell it, they also have more confidence and drive. These strengths carry women through their 20s, when they are more likely than men to be in grad school and making strides in the workplace. In a number of cities, they are even out-earning their brothers and boyfriends.
Still, for these women, one key question won't go away: Where have the good men gone? Their male peers often come across as aging frat boys, maladroit geeks or grubby slackers—a gender gap neatly crystallized by the director Judd Apatow in his hit 2007 movie "Knocked Up." ...
...So where did these pre-adults come from? You might assume that their appearance is a result of spoiled 24-year-olds trying to prolong the campus drinking and hook-up scene while exploiting the largesse of mom and dad. But the causes run deeper than that. Beginning in the 1980s, the economic advantage of higher education—the "college premium"—began to increase dramatically. Between 1960 and 2000, the percentage of younger adults enrolled in college or graduate school more than doubled. In the "knowledge economy," good jobs go to those with degrees. And degrees take years....
...Pre-adulthood can be compared to adolescence, an idea invented in the mid-20th century as American teenagers were herded away from the fields and the workplace and into that new institution, the high school. For a long time, the poor and recent immigrants were not part of adolescent life; they went straight to work, since their families couldn't afford the lost labor and income. But the country had grown rich enough to carve out space and time to create a more highly educated citizenry and work force. Teenagers quickly became a marketing and cultural phenomenon. They also earned their own psychological profile. One of the most influential of the psychologists of adolescence was Erik Erikson, who described the stage as a "moratorium," a limbo between childhood and adulthood characterized by role confusion, emotional turmoil and identity conflict....
...What explains this puerile shallowness? I see it as an expression of our cultural uncertainty about the social role of men. It's been an almost universal rule of civilization that girls became women simply by reaching physical maturity, but boys had to pass a test. They needed to demonstrate courage, physical prowess or mastery of the necessary skills. The goal was to prove their competence as protectors and providers. Today, however, with women moving ahead in our advanced economy, husbands and fathers are now optional, and the qualities of character men once needed to play their roles—fortitude, stoicism, courage, fidelity—are obsolete, even a little embarrassing....
...Single men have never been civilization's most responsible actors; they continue to be more troubled and less successful than men who deliberately choose to become husbands and fathers. So we can be disgusted if some of them continue to live in rooms decorated with "Star Wars" posters and crushed beer cans and to treat women like disposable estrogen toys, but we shouldn't be surprised.
Relatively affluent, free of family responsibilities, and entertained by an array of media devoted to his every pleasure, the single young man can live in pig heaven—and often does. Women put up with him for a while, but then in fear and disgust either give up on any idea of a husband and kids or just go to a sperm bank and get the DNA without the troublesome man. But these rational choices on the part of women only serve to legitimize men's attachment to the sand box. Why should they grow up? No one needs them anyway. There's nothing they have to do....
I like how she romanticizes an era where men beating women was pretty much okay (Like, half of The Beatles) and dudes went around grooming 14-year-olds like it was no big deal (Nugent, Elvis, Jimmy Page, and probably a billion others).
We evolved as a culture and our means of escapism changed. Oh no, how terrible. If only we could go back to the delightful happy fun-times of the 60's.
The Woodstock phenomena was the start of something new..a new sexual liberation ..of free love..
Raves are a microcosm of this..although not as broadly visible in all of culture now..as no one settles down to watch the 6pm news..with the rest of the country any more..with free outsourcing of cultural attachments...
Without wars for long enough..perhaps human beings will more reflect the Bonobo...
But social roles are going to have to change in some type of established 'reason' in reality..but i think humans will adapt eventually..they have incredible potential..that i know from my personal experience..100% know..that they do not come close to tapping....into..overall...
I think freedom of information exchange without the fear of censorship will eventually lead the way there...
But folks even non-autistic folks are so incredibly fearful of change once they have been brain-washed by their native culture for years and decades..against the incredible potential of their instinctual human nature...
That is the break through..perhaps... understanding what it even means to be a human social animal..
IN basic anthropological terms...we no longer live as we are evolved to live overall..there is SOLID EVIDENCE FOR THAT..at the most basic level fixated two feet restricted to points on a screen in the basic human requirement to move in
360 degrees for basic survival for hundred of thousands of years...
But in the loss of abstract prison of human thought..our experience of life becomes verbal...
Instead of 'real'..
That is the saddest part of all i see..experience..and thank GOD am not imprisoned in...any longer...
AS..
the human machine..the i robot..instead of
simple life..
AS social human animal...
Most of autism..the higher functioning type..the specific reciprocal social communication difficulties.. i am convinced is a product of our technological society..not an inherent thing..and most definitely for me..
moving from 45 on the AQ test..down to 11 now..simply through epigenetic and neuroplastic changes..away from our culture and back
to what we were for hundreds of thousands of years...free..to move..in 360 degrees..and not locked in to a life as a robot on a sidewalk in metaphor..
and literal reality...
I go to shopping stores now..and watch the zombies..as i spiral around them freely in 360 degrees...simply because i am free..and the robots are no longer..
my master..in metaphor and literal truth..2 for overall control of my FREE WILL..WHICH YES I DO HAVE..FREE WILL NOW...!
IT JUST MEANS NOT BEING CONTROLLED BY THE HERD..IN MY opinion...and forging one's own true path..without fear of not being accepted
by the herd..moving back to human social animal instinct ..rather than the brain washing of culture....
But anyway love talking to you free thinking guys..but i gotta go the beach..with my epigenetic change came an interesting cocoon like change from extreme beta male to extreme alpha male
in physical appearance..i study this though like an anthropologist participant observer..i am monogamous..but hell i can still get some vicarious thrills..even at 53..feeling younger and stronger...
in objective measurable ways..than ever before..
That is what i mean about untapped human potential..i have incredible case study evidence for that documented now..in my own life..
and i hope to find some actual empirical way to help others to find this incredible human potential..that far exceeds most folks ideas of human limitation and expectation....
If i could i truly believe it could end human suffering..for many folks..but it IS true..and as i continue to experience incredible gains in this human potential..i will continue to document it..to find a way...
to perhaps help someone find it too....
Suffering is not cool..but bliss..It's bliss..what fool would not want to live in bliss...
CULTURE CAN CONVINCE US TO BE FOOLS..IN MY BEST ESTIMATION..AND LOOK TO OTHERS..WHO ARE ENLIGHTENED AS CRAZY...
i've got that part documented too...
And that is nothing new..the historical precedent for it..repeats itself over and over..humans are just too easy to brainwash it seems..
Most humans that is..
But some of us
ESCAPE..thank G or whatever....
_________________
KATiE MiA FredericK!iI
Gravatar is one of the coolest things ever!! !
http://en.gravatar.com/katiemiafrederick
A society sans gender roles sounds just fine to me.
People who simply can't exist without society telling them who they are and what they should do are free to wallow, and I'm happy to let them.
That's probably the best way to look at the dilemma.
The Feminists might as well recognize that the war is over. Pounding on the Patriarchy just amounts to beating on an old horse that is so lame that it is basically dragging itself around, with great difficulty, on one foot. The Patriarchy is just about dead.

Might as well just let it go ahead and die on its own, and start working on building the post-patriarchal scene.
The old paradigm of a man holding a well-paying job to support his wife and brood, and doing his best to stop her from over-shopping, is gone. The gents have absolutely no reason to knock themselves out any more. They never really did in the first place. But now at least the social pressure is going away. Not that anyone should respond to social pressure.
That's probably the best way to look at the dilemma.
The Feminists might as well recognize that the war is over. Pounding on the Patriarchy just amounts to beating on an old horse that is so lame that it is basically dragging itself around, with great difficulty, on one foot. The Patriarchy is just about dead.
Personally, as a modern Western woman, I've never felt particularly "oppressed."
Exactly.
And, on the upside, maybe our coming social reality will be the "Age Of The Introvert," Namely, people who can function independently of social expectations will rise to the top.
_________________
"If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced."
-XFG (no longer a moderator)
haha..thanks.l. i forgot all about that song...
but this one here from ms. 'rat'..is more my anthem..
'synchronicity' and all that ;)2:)_
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsgWUq0fdKk[/youtube]
_________________
KATiE MiA FredericK!iI
Gravatar is one of the coolest things ever!! !
http://en.gravatar.com/katiemiafrederick
That's probably the best way to look at the dilemma.
The Feminists might as well recognize that the war is over. Pounding on the Patriarchy just amounts to beating on an old horse that is so lame that it is basically dragging itself around, with great difficulty, on one foot. The Patriarchy is just about dead.
Personally, as a modern Western woman, I've never felt particularly "oppressed."
Exactly.
And, on the upside, maybe our coming social reality will be the "Age Of The Introvert," Namely, people who can function independently of social expectations will rise to the top.
I haven't felt oppressed, exactly, but I have felt harrassed. I think that oppression is more of the cumulative social impact of individula harassment.
A minority of posters definitely started responding differently to me once it became more widely known here on WP that I'm female, and I try not to let it slip when I'm out-and-about on the internet because of that phenomenon; some of the people who disagree with me suddenly shift from 'I disagree with you because of x,' to 'you're a stupid/emotional/fat/ugly/whore.' Not everyone - maybe 10% of people do that. But it's annoying enough that I try not to let it slip that I'm female, and sometimes I refrain from commenting if the response requires 'coming out.'
As far as the 'age of the introvert,' I'm not optimistic about that. Most jobs still require one to interact with people if they require one to show up to a job site, and those who interact gracefully will still be judged better than those who don't.
I can understand that, but I'm pretty oblivious to social environments; therefore, people may have attempted to harass me on the basis of my womanhood, but I doubt I would've noticed. One of the reasons I don't identify as a "feminist" is that my perception of sex, gender, and culture is so atypical that I don't think I would make a very good advocate for women's rights.
Heh.
I've seen such things before. Typically, said men have such a low opinion of women that I'm not inclined to take their perspectives seriously in the first place.
I'm not optimistic about it either. I was just offering an alternate scenario since many folks I've conversed with seem to view "social change" as "social collapse."
I don't see a problem with a future where strict gender roles have dissolved.
_________________
"If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced."
-XFG (no longer a moderator)
I don't care about the opinions of the harassers themselves, but not responding to it is sometimes seen as an acknowledgment of social dominance by other people watching. I'm not great at social interactions, but I do take dominance, or the lack thereof, seriously; if you're seen as low-status, no one will help you regardless of how badly you''re treated.
That applies to both men and women; sexual harassment is just one extra tool that some men use to bolster their social status agasint some of their opponents.
That applies to both men and women; sexual harassment is just one extra tool that some men use to bolster their social status agasint some of their opponents.
Ah.
That makes sense. I'll try to keep that in mind for future encounters.
_________________
"If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced."
-XFG (no longer a moderator)
back on topic (at least a little...) the 'remove women from the workforce' is a sound idea/would 'free up' jobs for men to take up again....the feasbility of it is another question....
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back on topic (at least a little...) the 'remove women from the workforce' is a sound idea/would 'free up' jobs for men to take up again....the feasbility of it is another question....
_________________
I am a Star Wars Fan, Warsie here.
Masterdebating on chi-city's south side.......!
luanqibazao
Veteran

Joined: 13 Jan 2014
Age: 60
Gender: Male
Posts: 754
Location: Last booth, Akston's Diner
A society sans gender roles sounds just fine to me.
People who simply can't exist without society telling them who they are and what they should do are free to wallow, and I'm happy to let them.
Hear, hear.
I've had a number of different jobs, some of them requiring upper body strength, some not so much. Currently I'm a stay-at-home dad, changing nappies and washing dishes while my wife works nine-to-five. It works for us, and what "society" thinks of it concerns us not at all.
Why more and more men seem determined to prolong their childhood I'm not certain. I suspect there is more behind it than just Women's Lib.

please, please tell me this is sarcasm.
no it is not. it's mathematical fact.
_________________
I am a Star Wars Fan, Warsie here.
Masterdebating on chi-city's south side.......!